Cold Open On Women-Owned Branding

Anna Willey 0:00

I think over the years, I've always been really shy about pushing the women-owned narrative whatsoever. I've always wanted to focus on product. Uh, but the more I'm out in the stores and I get to speak to bun tenders and just women in general in the industry, I think it's important for me to uh just be a good example of somebody that's worked really hard and has a great team and happens to be a one.

Welcome Back And Idaho Reality Check

AnnaRae Grabstein 0:46

Hey everyone, welcome to High Spirits. I'm Anna Ray Grabsdeen. It's August 11th, 2026, and today we are recording episode 148. Uh Ben Larson is out today, uh, but I have an amazing guest, Anna Wiley, CEO of Cam, is with us today. Um, I am just back from a big off-grid camping and rafting trip in Idaho on the Salmon River. And oh my gosh, you guys, I'm sorry I wasn't with you last week, but it was so amazing. I was absolutely living out my little house on the prairie dreams, feeling like um a pioneer deep in the wilderness, uh, the Frank Church wilderness, actually, uh, which is one of the most remote wilderness areas in the US. I saw bald eagles and wild sheep and all kinds of incredible birds. It was so cool. Um, that said, Idaho is a serious prohibition state. So um don't go uh consuming any intoxicating substances in Idaho unless you're ready to really push the boundaries of the law.

Curaleaf Moves On Aurora Cannabis

AnnaRae Grabstein 1:57

Um for uh a quick little news update today. There is a lot going on in cannabis, but I did pick out two stories that I think are interesting for our audience. Um this morning, I got the early early morning text message about Kira Leaf publicly announcing its intention to launch an unsolicited takeover bid for Aurora Cannabis, um, offering $4 per share in cash and stock, which is a roughly 45% premium. And this is after Aurora's board already refused to engage, following two letters in July and June. Um so the combined company, if CuraLeaf is successful, would create a 17-country global cannabis platform. And it is a pretty wild concept. I haven't seen a takeover bid like this in cannabis before, which is why I thought it was worth uh mentioning today. No formal bid has been filed yet, and CuraLeaf says it's open to a negotiated deal, but it's taking the offer directly to shareholders after being rebuffed by the board. So I'll be following this and uh we'll keep you updated.

Hemp Ban Politics And Beverage Pathway

AnnaRae Grabstein 3:10

Another interesting piece of news is related to hemp. We've talked a ton over the last 18 months or so about the hemp ban and hemp policy broadly. Uh, really interesting quote that came from cultivated in today's newsletter from Senator Rand Paul, who said that there are a couple of industries that are opposed to hemp that also sell hemp, meaning the cannabis industry from Senator Rand Paul. And uh, you know, I think that this is really interesting because the Senate just passed a delay of 30 days to the hemp ban. And now another bill was introduced by Representative Beth Van Dyne from Texas and co-sponsored by Representative Greg Landsman of Ohio. And that bill is a regulatory pathway for hemp beverage that would mirror pretty closely the way that alcohol is regulated federally with a three-tier system for beverages specifically. And uh I think that the reason that I wanted to pull out this Rand Paul quote and mention it specifically is because there is a lot of kind of two-sided discussions going on here. We've got MSOs that are lobbying against hemp at the federal level while also selling hemp beverages into the market. So it's a little bit confusing. But if you are following the earnings calls of public companies, most of the public cannabis companies are mentioning that closing the hemp loophole benefits their companies in some way or another, and look at it as a positive signal from the federal government. Uh, that said, hemp beverages, I think, present a very different um competitive form factor to the categories that the MSOs are really winning in and are deriving a lot of business success from. So it's possible that this Beverage Regulatory Parity Act that was introduced yesterday is just the compromise that uh the MSOs and the hemp space might need to move forward and an interesting way to keep access in more conventional retail channels to some type of cannabinoid um products. So I'll be following this and we'll continue talking about it. There is lots of other news. Namely, as you can imagine, Vireo continues on its acquisition roller coaster, picking up companies wherever it can, broadening its footprint in different states and its earnings seasons. So if you want to follow along with the earnings reports, there are some small wins and lots of big losses per usual with the public companies.

Meet Anna Wiley And Cam’s Numbers

AnnaRae Grabstein 6:02

But it's time for us to talk to Anna. So today, our guest is Anna Wiley. She is the founder and CEO of Cam, which stands for California Artisanal Medicine. And by the numbers, she's built one of the biggest stories in California flour that most of the industry isn't talking about loudly enough, in my opinion. Uh, Cam is the number two branded flour brand in the state right now, trailing only behind STISI. And uh, by BDSA's numbers, it is doing about $73 million a year in California alone at retail. And their pricing is nearly double the average California market price per gram while still maintaining a premium value positioning. Uh, the revenue appears to be growing almost 100% year over year, comparing month over month to last July. Uh, she started in Colorado in 2009 as the first woman to open a dispensary in the state, relaunched in California in 2018, and has built Cam into one of the most successful cannabis producers in the country. Um, and from my experience with her so far, she's also refreshingly blunt. So we're not going to be holding back today. Um, welcome Anna to the show.

Anna Willey 7:20

Thanks, Anna Ray. Yes. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for having us here.

AnnaRae Grabstein 7:26

Yes, it is so great to have you in diving into the numbers this week, pulling up my BDSA, Claude MCP, seeing what you're doing. I've been like just so impressed overall. Totally, totally impressed with the growth, um, with the focus, with the way that the numbers continue to almost hold strong year over year with your pricing. I've seen that um as the market has compressed, your pricing has stayed really

Retailer Relationships Behind Premium Pricing

AnnaRae Grabstein 7:55

stable. So I think that we should just jump right in. I want to talk about what you're doing here in California. Um, so yeah, your number two flower brand. Your pricing is nearly double the market average. Your revenue is up year over year. Um how are you doing this? What is going on?

Anna Willey 8:14

I think, you know, everybody always comes on these and say, Oh, we have the best team, right? And and but I really do believe we have one of the best teams. And I think what's added is we have this mix of folks that have been here since day one with lots of what I call great hires from other companies uh that have done well. And we've been able to acquire these people, uh, especially in the sales department, uh, and and be able to grow from there and build these amazing relationships with our retailers. Uh, and I think that not enough credit goes. Usually brands, when they do well, they're like, you know, well, we're the best brand. So obviously everybody wants us in the retail, but you know, the retail is an extension of ourselves. And so I can't, I could not be here today without my amazing, you know, San Diego family and just all this for Steezy is number one, but we're also their number one third party. So I can't, you know, that same thing, catalyst off the charts. I mean, I can go on and on with the, you know, multi-store that goes on in California and then all the moms and pops, right? Well, you know, I have something like Canta Cruz and uh that do incredible numbers with us that push our brand. Um, I think over the years, I've always been really shy about pushing the women-owned narrative whatsoever. I've always wanted to focus on product. Uh, but the more I'm out in the stores and I get to speak to bun tenders and just women in general in the industry, I think it's important for me to uh just be a good example of somebody that's worked really hard and has a great team and happens to be a woman.

AnnaRae Grabstein 9:55

So yeah, I love that. And I I've actually felt the same struggle over the years as a woman in the industry. I haven't always felt like these women's groups and women's business meetups were for me. And and at the same time, I realized that I really want to set an example to the younger women that are following behind me. And uh like I've recently gotten into going to the Valkyries, the WNBA uh team in San Francisco. And and I realized just how badass these ladies are and how getting to have, yeah, and like getting to have role models like that when I was younger, like maybe I would have played basketball longer because I would have seen people that look like me that showed me that I could be athletic in that way. Um, so I totally hear you and I understand like why you don't you wanna you wanna earn your spot and you certainly have. It's not because you're a woman, you happen to be a woman, um, your company is certainly successful on its own.

Anna Willey 10:53

Yeah. And and the other part of it is that we have amazing men, and I've had the some of the best men mentors uh over the years. Um, and I feel that it's like I said, it's a it's a give and take there um of just having a team and having a great balance of great men and women. So yeah.

AnnaRae Grabstein 11:12

Well, let's like jump into some of the deeper strategy. So um as it relates, you talked about your retailers and how important they are, and um and ultimately the consumers are are driving the choice at the dispensary, they're they're buying your product. And what that looks like in terms of pricing is that the overall market in California for retail price per gram averages around $4 per unit. And then at the high end, you've got cannabiotics, which is another premium brand, and they are closer to about $11.50 per gram. And then you're kind of solely in the middle. You guys average $7.50 per gram. You have been there for the last couple of years based on the data that I could see. And I'm curious if you could just talk me through your pricing strategy and how you see premium value, kind of where how do you thread the needle to land it based on the quality and the brand and everything else?

Pricing Strategy Without Training Discounts

Anna Willey 12:12

I think that we we looked at this and we said to ourselves, let's, you know, when everybody was selling $37 ACE during COVID or what the just insanity pricing there, we just kind of wanted to start somewhere in the middle where we could stay there and then build into our cogs. So I think that our plan was, okay, we started off with a 500-light facility. We knew we were building a 2,000-light facility. We also knew tons of other people were building large facilities. We knew that the price would come down. Um, I I had seen it in in Colorado a bit more drastically. Um, and even after I left, we, we, we watched the price kind of plummet. So we wanted to make sure that we're growing everything that, you know, that we're not overproducing. So we're not in the position that we have to sell a ton of bulk or uh we have to do these, you know, crazy deals that end up actually not helping the consumer uh because then people start, you know, cutting corners on their product and all of those things. So our pricing strategy for ACE is to still kind of hold on to that wholesale price. And then um, with our we introduce sevens and 14s, uh, where there is, you know, some entry point of having some value. I know everybody hates that word. They associate it with like, you know, long art or whatever it is, but there is something to be said about a consumer saying, okay, well, I bought this super, super expensive thing and it was really great, but then I bought something that was just like a little bit cheaper, um, but it's consistent. Uh, so our our pricing strategy kind of holds with the consistency and RQC um of what does go into the jar, that it's the same every single time. I think that if you look at other any kind of CPG product, I think that you know it's so much easier. It's a lot easier to do with vapes, I'll tell you that much, I think, um, unless the barware blows up. Uh, but with flour, it is a living, growing thing. And believe me, there's a million things that can go wrong in 121 days of a harvest cycle. Um, and they usually do. So I'll kind of keeping the consistency of product and then relating that to price. We we don't think that the decrease in price is gonna stop. I think it's it's a it's a commodity, it will commoditize you a little bit further. I think your $25 eighth is gonna move to $20 eighth, you know, wholesale bit, right? So by you know, in another year. Um, but I think that we're at a standstill because a lot of these brands can't live on on giving 50% off. You know, they just it they they haven't, you know, they have not planned accordingly. And I think you can do it for a quarter and then pull back. Uh, but what happens usually is if somebody's used to buying something at a certain price, and then all of a sudden you you you bring it back and they might, you know, now not find the value. So it's so much better to kind of stay at, you can have a deal day here and there, but you know, stay at an everyday lower price and and really build into the variety, the width, the, you know, the value add of uh our brand ambassadors and our support for the stores and our sell-through, and using that money to go back to the retailers and say, hey, we can get 12 strains, two of them didn't sell very well. Let's make sure we get those, you know, let's make sure we get those off the shelf. I'm not here to hide that not every strain that we is amazing, right? So yeah.

AnnaRae Grabstein 15:40

Well, so you're you're skirting around a little bit discounting. And like in California, it's it's a big effing deal, right? It's like everybody is doing it, consumers are addicted to it. Like you said, they just start to believe always, yeah, 50% off, or I'm not gonna buy it. And then you talk to brands and sales folks, and everybody's kind of got a different strategy of how they want to price. Do they want to set their wholesale price high? And then you've got retailers that demand a certain percentage off every single invoice, or they want to do these certain deal days. But when you look at your numbers and how they're selling through at retail, it shows a story that shows that you're not doing as much discounting as the rest of the industry broadly. And I'm sure that your salespeople are getting the pressure from retailers that want you to do those discounts or that have certain ways that they think they're gonna be able to create success for your brand in their stores. I'm curious of how you have responded to that, how you've coached your team to kind of figure out how to land deals or land transactions without having to cut deals always and and to discount so heavily.

Anna Willey 16:56

It's a lot easier now roaming around with like whether it's a BDSA report or a hoodie report or whatever, you know, headset and saying, oh, hey, we you know, we're in the top three, whatever it is, we're the number one brand. Now it's easier. Back in the day, I think that we always uh stated that, hey, whatever money that we're we're we're getting, we're gonna spend the rest of it on marketing and we're gonna really help you with sell through. Some buyers would get it, some wouldn't, until they actually saw, you know, the proof is in the pudding that there is sell-through on a regular basis. I think we also go in and I always train the sales folks to talk about listening. Where are we in their store? Who else is in their store? What kind of margins are they making from not that they'll tell you right away, but you'll eventually learn what are the margins that some of these other top brands are offering? What can

Store-Level Selling And Guerrilla Marketing

Anna Willey 17:46

we do better in the store that they're not getting from that relationship? Right. I think sometimes once folks become a top brand, they're not visiting the stores as much. They're not, you know, on the floor as much. And I think that we're pretty nitty-gritty. We're kind of a grind, I'm kind of grindy. I work seven days a week and I'm I'm in my warehouses and I'm at the shops. And uh I think there's a lot to be said about, you know, just just just making that relationship with with each of the individual store managers and getting down to that. We have a just amazing um marketing program and a marketing team that does that as well.

AnnaRae Grabstein 18:22

Talk more about that because I think that people think that you can't market in cannabis, but you're clearly doing it. A lot of people are doing it, but it's just it's different. It's not putting an ad on television or or advertising on the radio. It's a little bit more gritty.

Anna Willey 18:38

Uh so say more about the type of success that you've had. We'll do some of that. We're like Dr. Green Thumb's had something on the Super Bowl, and we happened to be a product that, you know, that that was on there and we had treated their staff or something like that. But we try and we try to use marketing as a uh defensive play, I would say, more so than an offense. We know that we can't do, I mean, now I think they've gotten rid of even, you know, things on the highway and whatnot, but uh in terms of billboards, what we do is we have brand ambassadors, and then we also lean into any type of event the store might be having. Uh, I think that that's like a big piece of it and try to participate on that level. It is, there's no other way to put it, but guerrilla marketing. Um, it's on the ground, it's people driving hours away to all sorts of places, and and uh, you know, we also have territory-driven programming, right? What's gonna work in San Diego is not gonna work in NORCAL, and it's probably not gonna work in the IE. It's probably, you know, every single territory is very, very different. And we have a team that kind of caters to that, and we're always listening to our sales reps. I will say that the entire company is built on uh supporting the sales. Uh uh, everything that we do is to try to make the sales team's jobs easier. Um, if they want different strains, if they want different products, we always, you know, hear and then, and then we look at the market, right? How big is this market for us to go into and what's the lift on it? Um, but especially on the uh strain selection side of going very, very wide, having a lot of great variety, uh, trying to find something for everyone. And then tons and tons of feedback from uh an analytical standpoint to say, okay, Hashburger selling, let's grow more of it. And and and actually grow for some of the bigger shops on what they want, right? Um uh really looking at what's sitting on the shelf after two weeks and what went first, and then going back to cultivation and doing all of our planting scheduling around that.

AnnaRae Grabstein 20:51

Uh how how do you create that feedback loop? Because when to actually actualize that type of communication from the field into operations, especially as the company goes from where

Sales Feedback Loop Into Cultivation

AnnaRae Grabstein 21:03

it probably, you know, 20 people to 200 is is really hard.

Anna Willey 21:08

Well, I think that I've I've seen it just trying to do some of the licensing stuff. I've always, and as from a cultivation background, usually the cultivation team has lots of problems with the sales team. They're like, here we go again. They're gonna tell me that some strain is horrible, and then the cultivation team loves it. Well, I'll tell you, it's this, you know, the secret sauce of Cam or was really special is we have a head of cultivation that's really humble and he's always talking to the sales team on his own. Actually, there's a lot of communication there between, you know, the VP of strategy and sales and you know, Damien versus Ryan, and just kind of that, you know, just that correspondence, I think, is very, very important. Uh, we get the team together often so that they can get to know each other and they realize that, hey, you could grow the very, very best product in the world. It's commoditized. If it doesn't sell within like 29 to 34 days, it's trash. So you can grow all the best product. And of course it's it's you know it's product centric, but it's really, really about the sales and making sure that we're connecting with the customer and connecting with our retailers to make that happen. So I'm not a big meeting person. I try not to have huge meetings. I try to have very, very quick five, 10 minute small meetings just to kind of get to the point. Like you said, I'm blunt. There's probably no better way for first for anyone to describe me. You know, there's barely a high and hello and it's just let's get into it because we're wasting time. But yeah I that's that's what I would say is a lot more human and then kind of gearing the whole the whole company the strategy towards towards sales.

AnnaRae Grabstein 22:50

Well I think I want to dive a little bit into cultivation because I it's a key part of what you guys do. You recently converted a former Coors bottling plant um into your new Sacramento operation and you did that through uh through purchasing the real estate itself and and developing the space.

Anna Willey 23:12

Why don't you tell us a little bit about that and just your cultivation like your operational footprint broadly okay great so we uh I came here in 2018 and uh bought a 30,000 square foot warehouse. My big thing has always been we want to try to own the the buildings that we're in it helps us uh it helps us plan for our financial future and our financial strategy. Uh and so we had the 500 light facility everything that we've done has really come from the growth of using the money that you're making. We've had, you know, I just only have one partner and he's on the you know helping me with the real estate end but that's also very helpful. I think that that that's been our strategy. So uh we then opened up a 2000 light facility in Nathomas uh which is just 15 minutes away. Here's the other big thing is that we're not all over the place. Everything is within 15 to 20 minutes away from each other. I think that that's a big proponent of teams talking to each other, getting stuff worked out between you know just the proximity. I mean if you look at things like In N Out or any other business that does it they really don't want to have their operational too far away from where they're located in the state. I think that that's like a good a good lesson for us. That's just how we operate. Then we opened up a 2000 light facility in 2024. I think that the main most important thing that we've done for Cam is that we have gone all in on one brand. We had a moment where you know we were like

Facilities Strategy And Avoiding Distressed Assets

Anna Willey 24:54

oh my God 2500 lights that's too much for one brand right we should probably make a cheap brand or a you know a street brand or you know those types of things and and I don't think any of that works. I think that if you have a team that is really focused and laser focused on loving one thing and everybody's in you know for one thing uh it just it's been great for us. I'm not saying that that can't be done because I'm watching tons of people do four or five brands and especially here in Missouri. So um there there's a there's a strategy for everybody for us right now it's really to just go all in on on on what we have. So we have the we have 2500 lights we have bought the Coors bottling um which is you know I'm like oh I'm just kind of in dreamland because it's so it you know it it has uh a lot of um emotional impact the kind of you know big big companies uh and then we are building out another 2000 lights um that should be completed by February of this year but our entire distribution center has been moved in there and our corporate offices are there. And then we have a Long Beach location, the Long Beach office and that's where the big part of our sales and marketing team reside there as well.

AnnaRae Grabstein 26:10

Okay. And so as you think about these operations and and how you want to manage and grow, I'm sure that you've considered distressed assets. There's been lots of cultivation for sale in California and yet you're choosing to build it say more about that. Tell me what you've seen when you've looked at other cultivation even though I didn't even ask you if you did I know you did. So tell me what you saw and why you chose not to buy it.

Anna Willey 26:38

It's so many I think sometimes I'm gonna be careful on how I word this so I don't offend the world um distressed assets come with not only is the asset distressed, but the people are distressed too. So by the time you fix the asset and you fix you know some of the distressed people that come with a distressed asset, you might as well have just bought or built the new shiny thing. Uh that's always been, you know, and I and I and I hope that people see that as we grow in value for Cam, which is um our worth is the fact that we're we're building and it's positive and it's not everyone's very busy with distressed assets. I'm I I'm watching it especially on the retail side. So uh not much is being paid attention to the quiet operator that's quietly having you know growth and kind of and and also during a time where a lot of things are distressed, um we're not here to you know boast and be like oh look we're doing so great because it is it is it is a really difficult time for some of these folks that are losing their businesses and I'm I'm an empath on on that note. Totally.

AnnaRae Grabstein 27:49

Okay.

Genetics Mix Of Classics And New

AnnaRae Grabstein 27:50

Well so then more on cultivation let's talk about genetics. Yeah yeah let's talk about genetics. I want to hear kind of you said that you have lots of strains. I know you've got some proprietary strains, some classics like you guys are leaning into like diesels and train wrecks and cheese and kind of like old school strains, which I love. I always wanted someone to put out like a retro vintage line specifically and seems like that's happening. Yeah. Yeah that we're do yeah yeah go ahead so talk about kind of how you how you choose genetics how you manage genetics even if like you're working with outside nurseries versus managing your own pheno hunting kind of the whole thing.

Anna Willey 28:30

Okay so we have a three-part um strategy on genetics uh we at this time pop very very few seeds it is a year and a half away uh we we do it very very carefully because we don't have specifically an RD facility in the new facility we have an area for RD we do have quarantine areas in the in the warehouses but that also makes it very difficult and let me tell you if you're going to compromise your entire warehouse for some strain that might have hops or root aphids or mites you know there's there's all of that and then some and and our whole thing is that we are working towards OCAL certificate we're working towards all these things and and IPM and and pest management is a huge part of that. And and so we're really really careful on what we bring into it. We have 120 different strains that we keep alive a lot of them are in stasis um we grow for seasonality I think sativas are really fun in the summer people are going to concerts they want to get out they like sativas I think that indicas you got to have some all year round uh I'll tell your listeners or our listeners the mistake that we made recently is that we grew too many sativas for the summer and not enough indicas uh so when that kind of happens then we kind of have to go back and and retrofit the schedule again listening to our sales team uh we work with um we do work with outside nurseries what I will say about and just keeping all the old stuff from 49 in January I'll say that I have been and I've been growing for a very long time so I knew it just like clothing I knew you know it all comes back around yeah that do I want you know um Jabot jeans to come probably not but they will and someone will wear them and so we we kept a lot of stuff we've kept a lot of the old OGs alive. We have folks that have kept them alive for me just really old like growers that are still have two lighters in their homes and things like that. I think that there's something to be said about keeping these really old strains. There's a lot of value because folks like you and me want to smoke sour diesel, SFV, um and and and train wreck, which is you know notorious for herming out, but even act gooey headband all those types of things not only is it nostalgic it takes you back to whenever we first smoke pot. But I think that there's a huge target audience of folks over 40 over 50 that want to buy something that they can resonate or relate to.

AnnaRae Grabstein 31:21

Yeah. I I love that you just dropped Afgoy the first farm that I ever went to in 2004 in Mendo was harvesting Afgoo and that was the first thing I ever trimmed. So it takes me right back. Huge bud stigma is my head biggest my head yeah well you brought up um pest management you brought up hops I'm curious about kind of some of the worst stuff that you've seen and faced our infiltrating yeah and so how are you dealing with it now?

Anna Willey 31:54

So

IPM Discipline And OCAL Ambitions

Anna Willey 31:55

we live for scouting and so we have people scouting we have an entire amazing um IPM from a uh gentleman that we acquired from Arizona he brought an amazing IPM program Michael and uh you know intro made sure that we had these very very specific uh scouting uh techniques where people are going into the rooms or filling out forms, making sure every single day that we're scouting this kind of like allows us to not spray in flower. We use mostly 25B products. Like I said we were we're working towards an OCAL certification. We want to I do believe as people kind of view hopefully cannabis in more of a healthy manner or a health, you know, in the health industry uh I feel that a brands that are taking um you know cat for all of those things are taking more the interest in in providing yes it's a little more expensive but it's a little more expensive because it's it's better for you. I know we're not allowed to use the word organic but at least try to get close to it.

AnnaRae Grabstein 33:03

So yeah yeah yeah it's OCAL is organic it's just of government won't let you use the term organic so I I appreciate that. Yeah I've I I work with Coastal Sun they're the number 10 flower brand and they are OCAL certified and and I see them on on that top list and I think that um I think that there should be more more brands that should be that are providing that to consumers and and I'm curious like essence we're talking about OCAL and you do grow indoor so I think it is more challenging in a controlled environment to both keep out pests and maintain organic standards. And also there's like a massive carbon footprint and sustainability kind of issue that you're faced with with those massive power bills and all those things. I'm wondering if there are any sustainability measures that you're implementing since you're getting to build these cultivation operations from the ground up are you doing any cool new technology harvesting water from air conditioners, like whatever it might be that that could be reducing your footprint at all?

Anna Willey 34:13

I think that we're the way we do that is we're not using we're not using rock wool, which is you know harder to biodegrade. It is literally insulation. So we only we're only in cocoa I think that we we don't use any of the water types of activities of reclaiming water um mainly because I've seen a lot of issues come from that and we don't have any time to waste in our market of you know trying something out. The difficulty of I was never I'll I people have found amazing strains to grow under LEDs. We're still in HPS. What I will say about LEDs is that you still have to use five times the amount of dehumidification. So by the time you have that in place it's really not very much different from using regular HPS. We are trying to mimic the sun um we have like a we have like a project that we probably won't touch for a couple years until there's some reason to touch it but it's like a whole bunch of acres in Calusa you know I do love whatever like that those types of activities but as a top shelf flower brand um I'm kind of a diehard

Sustainability Tradeoffs In Indoor Cultivation

Anna Willey 35:38

for indoor and and and the look and the smell just and what it looks like.

AnnaRae Grabstein 35:43

It's you know sure but I will tell you they're doing a great job over there um at uh at coastal yeah there you go yeah okay I'll be happy to hear that um well so let's um let's move out of cultivation and talk again a little bit more about sales marketing and distribution because I think that distribution in California is also a special sauce. It's a complicated environment we've seen brands that have gone with distributors suffered great pains when folks like herbal went down and didn't pay their bills that caused brands to go under um but self-distribution is complex and expensive if you don't have the volume. It appears that you do have the volume but I'd love it if you could just walk us through how CAM goes to market from cultivation to the shelf, what your distribution looks like, what your sales looks like and anything else that you can throw in there for us.

Anna Willey 36:40

Everybody is in-house and I I definitely have been you know uh wowed by NABIS's growth and we were never interested in working with herbal uh but we look at those types of things and I I've always said the same thing. If you don't control your distribution you really don't control it. It's it's really difficult. So we kind of built it in and you're absolutely right the first couple years you'd have packaging teams that can only work three days and half of them would leave because they didn't have enough work or you know all of those types of things. You kind of have to work into it. We have an amazing uh director of distribution she's she's just a rock star Alex but the cool thing about Alex is that it's all succession planned. That's another you know secret sauce of Cam. So they start from wherever I find them and you know as a lead in the packaging department and they've had some experience and then we just kind of build together uh and for her to kind of take over that entire operation of of distributing uh four to five million bucks a month of packaged goods. Uh so we harvest it right 14 days in the dry room uh quarantined while it's getting tested uh then it goes through that entire time it goes through tons of QC we have three different levels of QC the last one being at the distribution level um and then uh everything is sorted

In-House Distribution And Tech Stack

Anna Willey 37:58

um by bud size and structure and all these types of things and then we package you know we have we have a lot of automation there uh tons of automation lots of uh but we don't actually do the packaging for with the machine so that some of that stuff that you know the high price well also comes with some higher cogs as well because we're hand picking um you know I'm a big fan of if you look at how Porsches are built, you know, the men work on the outside the women do the inside hand stitching uh just kind of that familial operational uh wherewithal is is is is pretty evident when you come into come into cam and and and look at the folks that are that are really handling the weed and the care that we are handling the product with. So um under four nugs and eight um under 15 and right those those types of like rules and so that way no one goes home and they're like what's this why is there so many buds in this right and why did I pay this much money I thought these were kind of going to be bigger buds all of that we try to kind of make sure that the customer is going home being like wow this is better than I expected. So we do we and then we distribute everything from Sacramento believe it or not we have a small hub in Long Beach just as like a layover but that's just where sales and marketing is but everything is distributed and driven all across the state um we have like almost like 12 vans and a box truck uh that's going all over California um and we're in multiple territories every single day a lot to manage we've got to what does the tech stack look like for that did you guys build your own are you working with one of the existing uh we've got tools in house yep yeah I come in another world I come from software so um I work at AP and things like that. So I I do love to try to use software. Um obviously now building financial narratives is completely taken over by Claude and my specialness is not as special. Um but I I think that we're really we're really diving into um how better every every month we look at how can we do a better job at uh at at distributing because it's not our forte our forte is I feel cultivation and sales and I think distribution um just gets better every single month on how we can how do we deliver we're we have goals how do we deliver in 48 hours right from Sacramento it's a it's a jigsaw it's a jigsaw puzzle.

AnnaRae Grabstein 40:25

So what are some of the current challenges that you're trying to figure out right now?

Anna Willey 40:28

The current challenges that we're having is that when if our cutoff is on Monday, then how do we get the product on Wednesday? How do we get our buyers to give us some orders over the weekend so that we can work through the weekend a little bit a little bit more efficiently and not, you know, poor Alex is, you know, has 50 million orders on Monday morning.

AnnaRae Grabstein 40:49

These are just like I mean uh but I'm very hands-on so I I love being in the mix of trying to figure it out with the team um and and and it's just some of the challenges of of of owning all the parts um yeah and there's been a lot of times where whatever it is 6% you know you're still gonna have to package for June you're still gonna have to do work for June there's still gonna have to be some version of distribution even to give it to NABIS um yeah how do you see it in terms of of the cost and like what's the right amount for you to be spending on sales and distribution as a percentage of your sales three percent three percent and that's for distribution that's for distribution distribution and so yeah that's substantially less than what people are paying for NAVIS so that's definitely a competitive advantage.

Expansion Reality Check Beyond California

AnnaRae Grabstein 41:42

Um all right well so multi-state and growing beyond California um let's talk about that a little bit because you've got this real footprint and I know that you publicly did a deal with Pharmacan um I don't know if that was a couple years back but Pharmacan, people who listen to us know Pharmacan is no longer uh but I'm sure that you've got folks knocking at your doors when you're putting a brand on the top 10 list in California people are paying attention.

Anna Willey 42:15

So I'm wondering what you're thinking about how you're looking at what comes after California we are trying to salvage our New York and Illinois situation of obviously that we had with PharmaCan. In New York we're in 350 stores. Clearly we have not found something to replace that speaking of Viria you know I'm I'm looking for folks that are actually cultivating and that we can kind of partner and help them with culture help them get to that level of the next level of superior product together. I think that gone are the days that California brands just come in and say hey I'm going to give you these great strains and you're gonna give me lots of checks. I don't I don't I don't think helpful at all for anybody. And I think a lot of these MSOs are now they have a bad taste in their mouth. They're just like California brand like we've had a terrible taste in our mouth because they do this but there's no like actual beneficial of like coming in and selling through and and that's not to knock anybody that's done it. I think there's people that there are doing it really well. Uh what I learned it's very very hard to key C from across the country it's fun we'll see.

AnnaRae Grabstein 43:32

It's interesting because what you're talking about are these traditional licensing deals, but you certainly have the operational experience to go and build a cultivation in another market and operate like you have been in California and be able to capture the whole margin. I think that the reason why these licensing deals have failed is not only because of the challenges of someone like you being able to not do QC on some MSO's crappy Mids that they're growing, but also because at some point as prices compress, those crappy mids need to get a full margin in order to pay for themselves. And nobody wants to pay that 8, 10, 14, 10, whatever it is, or 10, whatever it is. It just doesn't work. So, like, so are you thinking about operating?

Anna Willey 44:22

Oh, I am not thinking about operating at this time. I think that we are very happy with where we are in California. Uh, we are doubling down on California. Uh, I look at you could go cobble together 10 states, and I'm still not going to get 41 million people in a state. Uh I am very hands-on and enjoy going to my cultivation facilities. Uh, we we just haven't, we haven't, we're still looking for the right licensing partnership. We're willing to put in financial, you know, to maybe help build or design and grow of something. We are talking to some folks about that. Uh, but we are not ready uh just yet to just go and do what I did here. Buy a building, build out a facility, staff it, and uh operate. Um, and and deal with all of the licensing and the regulations that happen in the first two years of a market. Everybody is racing to say, great, two years of a market. Then they read some, you know, a little layer of you know what the cultivation rules are in Minnesota, and they're like, wait, what? Like, what's going on? Like, this is lazy. So um none of that makes sense for cultivation, but that's because a lot of these folks are are making rules that they're going to uh protect their community. It's like they want to do it their way. Um I I don't see a ton of states going to all the other states and saying, okay, well, this is kind of working, this is not. Uh, and that's why um, and we're notorious, right? Every everybody's like, oh, California, but um I will say some of the rollout hasn't been the best in New York. Um, I'm not gonna go, I'm not gonna go in there and uh fight with folks that are from the area, right? And there's the that the whole social equity program, which I'm here to say. Um I'm I'm not a fan of social equity programs. I do not think that they really work. I think it'd be a lot easier to uh hang your hat on folks that know how to run a business or are trying to run a business, um, and then help folks that can be helped within the social equity confines, um, which I think that that was the point of some incubator stuff, but I don't think any of that stuff has worked either. Um, but at the time I am cautious. Uh, and then also our strategy is we eat what we kill. So uh we want to make sure that we can afford to buy the building and outfit it and do all of those things and and wait for the time that it's gonna take without depleting all of our value and um you know financial uh success that we're having in California.

Debt-Free Growth And Capital Discipline

AnnaRae Grabstein 47:20

Well, so let's let's talk about finances then a little bit as as we wrap the hour. My understanding is that there has not been much or any outside funding, uh, no big MA headlines. Um, is this like a badge of honor for you? Is it a limitation you're working around? Are you taking on debt to build these things? How do you how do you kind of reconcile all of the money that's needed to grow, scale, and operate these things and um and also keeping a nice clean balance sheet?

Anna Willey 47:54

We could have built a 2000-light facility in 2020 or 2021. We waited until we had the money to do it in 2023. Um we are happy to be a private company that's doing well. Uh, I think that we do not have debt. We are debt-free. So we're excited to say that. And uh we are enjoying the fruits of our labor at this time because we saved and we didn't spend a lot of like, like I said, we had an amazing marketing team. Does my VP of marketing have great visions of grandeur to have parties every day and do all this stuff and and huge marketing campaigns? Absolutely, he does. I didn't do any of that stuff. We we kind of did it a little more grittier and saved for these big capital expenses that come with buying three and a half million dollars of HVAC. And that's what that's literally what it is. So I feel if you control your growth and control your distribution, uh, you control your own destiny and and you have to get there in a way that you can uh make sure that the people the folks are giving you money, if you are gonna take debt, you have to be 110% sure that you're gonna be able to give money back to shareholders. And it's so volatile and the taxes are so high. It's I I I did not feel that I could do that and look a shareholder or look at somebody in the in the face and say, yep, yeah, go ahead. Give me 25. Give me 25 M's. I I I got it. And so we just we we've been we've been very cautious. That might that might hurt me later on. I will say that. I do I do recognize that.

AnnaRae Grabstein 49:36

So well, so then looking forward and generally kind of where we are today, how do you view the public MSO landscape and everything happening in the cannabis capital markets right now?

Anna Willey 49:48

Uh I think that there's clear lots of winners. I think there's a lot of folks that are doing a great job and have done. I mean, uh I have I applied for a bunch of licenses in Illinois as a as a young gal. Uh GTI is very, very uh impressive. What an impressive company. Um, I think look at Kim beating all the boys to go public

MSOs, Exits, ESOP Skepticism

Anna Willey 50:11

market. I think that's pretty cool. Um, and she's also one of those folks that's not like, you know, women or whatever. So I think that that's and all of it's impressive. I think that I worry about the craftness of cannabis and and you know, with these huge, you know, huge companies. Um I think it gives us, I think that the big MSOs, the ones that are kind of exploding, uh is is really bad for cannabis. I will say that. Because it just it takes institutional investors and they make them want to rip out all their hair and run away. Um, so you know, the the the after effects of Farm We Canon and everybody that put in, you know, I think it was around $300 million. Believe me, they have a lot of friends and they that that that wasn't, you know. And but I what I will say about that whole thing is that there's great people inside the companies. They're still great people. So um when I come back to New York, I'll definitely be hitting up the sales team that did a great job at selling, you know, $5 million a candle, right? So still build those work. Yeah.

AnnaRae Grabstein 51:17

Well, so what we'll move the needle for you. I mean, you're still growing, you have a lot of ownership over the company. But if private equity comes knocking or if GTI wants to come and roll you up, like do you have a number in mind that is that's the thing that's gonna send you to the Bahamas, or are you just in it for the long run?

Anna Willey 51:37

Everybody has a number, I think. I I wouldn't, I wouldn't say it out loud here, but I think everybody has a number. But I also think that the I think the number has to come with a lot of different things, right? I think I think at the end of the day, I really enjoy working. But if someone came around and, you know, had had a great number and said, you know, your team will have great work contracts. Um, you know, you'll be the CEO, but maybe not the CEO forever, but you'll be the CEO for X amount of time. And then, you know, we'll we'll bring in, you know, this and that and try to repackage it and get a second shot at it, and you still own some of it. I'm not against it.

AnnaRae Grabstein 52:16

Yeah.

Anna Willey 52:16

What do you think about Aesops? Becoming employee owned. I I know he's a yes. I've uh I'm I have I'm not a fan at this time of Aesops. I think that's yeah, yeah, that's it. Yeah, I think it's being sold as this like high moral ground type situation of like the Packers. I love football, but like, you know, like here you go, everyone's gonna own it. And and and but at the end of the day, I think it's like uh an easy way out for owners, I guess, maybe in my opinion. Um, and I haven't seen a ton of them go well. But if you can, if you can throw some at me that have gone well, I'd more than happy to study them and take a second look. But boy, do people had had been pushing them on me as of recent.

AnnaRae Grabstein 53:04

Um people are you you fit the exact profile that they're looking for. So that makes sense. I've I've been studying them myself, and and I think that time will tell. Um I think that there's some really interesting, compelling things about it, especially in a company that's profitable and things like that. But um, we are nearing the end of the hour. Um, you've been super candid. Um, really appreciate it. Is there anything that we haven't talked about that you want to talk about before last call?

Anna Willey 53:35

I think that the next couple of years in California are gonna be really hard. And I really hope that the rest of the cannabis companies that are private kind of put our

Interstate Commerce Bet And Final Call

Anna Willey 53:44

nose to the ground and work with each other and not against each other. How we weave our path.

AnnaRae Grabstein 53:50

Yeah. Well, I think I have a question about that. Uh, because, you know, there's been this rescheduling effort at the federal level, something that I'm excited about that I think could move the new the needle for California, but that's also still complex and not clear is interstate commerce. And um, I think it could provide an incredible opportunity for California supply. And um, I'm wondering if you're thinking about that.

Anna Willey 54:16

That's exactly like for okay. So here's what I will say everyone that's evaluating their companies today should not be saying, well, I applied for a DA license and now I'm going to be global and all of this type of stuff. I think that you should just be evaluating companies at the sole level of the numbers itself today. There could be a possibility that years down the line we're able to send cannabis to Missouri or whatever it is from California. I would love that opportunity. And obviously, we're quietly betting on that. That's literally what we're betting on. That's why we're growing in the area that we know how to operate and grow in, because then the next step for us is being able to send it out. And then all this licensing stuff really won't matter at all because we can just, yeah, we can just send it directly to the stores. We can do all of that type of stuff. Send it to have a little portion of DTC. Like I love the, I love the retail aspect, and it's cool what to see what's going on in Georgia, where they're selling it in the pharmacies next door to Tyne and all. Um, that's interesting to me. All of those things are are interesting. But if I had a choice, I would rather have it go the way of my friends in Wine and Spirits versus, you know, the far the farm.

AnnaRae Grabstein 55:27

Yep. Makes sense. Well, it is time for our last call. So, Anna Wiley, what is your final message for our listeners?

Anna Willey 55:36

Buy some can. Absolutely. Get out to the case. Solid one. Yeah. Go get out to uh to uh to a retailer uh in your local area and try us out. And uh we'd love any kind of feedback and constructive criticism you can give us to make us better. We love Eat California.

AnnaRae Grabstein 55:54

Amazing. Thank you so much, Anna. It was great to have you here. Uh and we'll see you around. So thank you. Bye. Yeah. Um, thank you to our teams at Vertosa and Wolf Meyer and to our producer, Eric Rossetti. If you enjoyed this episode, please share, like, review, do all the things wherever you listen to podcasts. We're growing on YouTube. Um, we appreciate all of you. And as always, folks, stay curious, stay informed, and most importantly, keep your spirits high. Until next time, that's the show.