Welcome And A Quick Audible

Ben Larson 0:00

Hey everybody.

AnnaRae Grabstein 0:02

Welcome to episode 141 of High Spirits.

Ben Larson 0:06

I'm Ben Larson.

AnnaRae Grabstein 0:07

And I'm Anna Ray Grabstein.

Ben Larson 0:09

And we're recording Tuesday, June 9th, 2026. We've got a cannabis business news roundup for you today. I'm here in Oklahoma City. Anna Ray's there looking like it. She's at home, as long as that's not a virtual background. And yeah, we weren't going to do a cannabis business news roundup today, but you know, we had to pull an audible, so you get what you get.

AnnaRae Grabstein 0:32

Well, I know it's also a big day in your household, right? I think we have a happy birthday to throw out there to one of our youngest listeners. Is that right?

Ben Larson 0:41

It is. Uh yes. I am once again earning Father of the Year Award and you know, FaceTime my son from Oklahoma City to say happy birthday. So happy birthday, buddy. Big nine. He's a big kid. I he he he told me this morning, he's like, I woke up and and I think I have growing pains in my knees. I'm like, oh it's that nine-year-old uh Grossberg. It happens on your birthday.

AnnaRae Grabstein 1:04

Alistair, you're the man. Thanks for listening.

Ben Larson 1:08

Yeah, yeah. But um, yeah, it's uh, you know, I haven't been traveling much the last couple months, uh, but had to make an exception to be out here, um, be with a bunch of regulators from all across the states and beyond. Uh, we have tribes represented, we have other nations represented, and uh a lot of our fellow, you know, uh organizational leaders, uh, a lot of lawyers, that kind of stuff, but talking about policy and and Jillian could kick things off this morning. Jillian, the director of Canra, also one of our guests on an earlier episode, um, but she pointed out to everyone. It's like this is a space for the regulators, everyone, to hear things that they might not necessarily agree with, that the panelists don't necessarily agree on, but to have civil discourse and let it draw the picture of the the uncertain world that we all operate in. And I think, you know, I'm really excited for it. It's actually happening right now. I came up during lunchtime. And uh yeah, I think it's just the most important year so far for us to be having having this meeting.

AnnaRae Grabstein 2:17

Well, how did you get invited to this this invitation only, mostly for regulators and stakeholders event? Who are you there representing?

Ben Larson 2:26

Yeah, I snuck in the back door as I do. No, um, you know, I've attended the last I don't think I'll attended last year, but you and I were in Minnesota together two years ago for for the Canon event. So uh that event, I was there for the National Cannabis Industry Association, of which I'm still a board member. Uh this year I'm representing the Coalition of Adult Beverage Alternatives, CABA, uh, which Diana Eberline is is the chair of. So nice. I bounce around. I like to wear many hats.

AnnaRae Grabstein 2:55

And you're speaking on a panel, right?

Ben Larson 2:58

I am. Yeah. Tomorrow uh I'll be joined by Clint, uh, who we met last last week, the new DCC director, and we're just gonna be talking about uh public safety and where cannabinoids could and should be sold. And so, you know, again, an interesting time to be having that conversation because the uncertain landscape and the proliferation of hemp products have given us an opportunity to witness uh cannabinoids being sold in different venues. And in certain cases, the world hasn't burned down, in other cases, maybe we've discovered that maybe they shouldn't be sold there.

AnnaRae Grabstein 3:36

Well, you might be saying all the right things because you're gonna be there with the regulators and don't want to put your foot in your mouth. So I'll put my foot in my mouth and just say to hear that this question is where should cannabinoids be sold for years and working in cannabis, it has been frustrating over and over running up against regulators that sort of don't ever want to share their position because they're just there to kind of implement and execute on the laws. It seems to be the constant narrative. And so I'm curious to hear if the regulators are more apt to actually have an opinion or share their position on in a discussion like the one that you have about where they think cannabinoids should be sold, as opposed to just where the law says cannabinoids should be sold. Because part of thinking into the future and and kind of creating the the industry and the consumer environment that we want is to not just accept what's on the books today, but to uh think about what it could be, you know.

Ben Larson 4:42

Yeah. Well, I'm only halfway through day one, uh, and I can't give specifics about who said what, but I will say that there have been certain statements that that do indicate that regulators are people, and those people, like many Americans, are familiar with the cannabis plant. And one even went as far to say as like I was having a lot more fun with this when I was just a consumer. Or um maybe not all consumers want to go into dispensaries, and that maybe certain types or certain formats should be sold uh and have greater access to consumers because at the end of the day, the people that we all serve uh want them. And so if we're relegating them to places that not all people are going to go,

Where Cannabinoids Should Be Sold

Ben Larson 5:30

then are we doing a service to society or our our public?

AnnaRae Grabstein 5:36

Sure. Yeah, and and you and I saw each other um in person last Friday, um and regulators were the star of the show. Um, our good friend David Hua from Meadow, which is um one of the industry's POS companies, uh, has this incredible space in San Francisco that they've occupied for probably a decade that they've been having industry events for. And um Hua is a great um maven for bringing folks together. And he hosted a pretty small gathering of um of a wide kind of cross-section of California industry folks um from all across the supply chain, and um gave us the chance to meet Clint Kellum, the new head of the DCC here in California in person. And Clint brought Christina Dempsey along with him, who um has worked in the department for a long time. I think first she was in communications and now she's doing um policy work, I think between the legislature and and the DCC or something like that. And and you're right, regulators are people too. Like one of the things that I was reminded of when I saw Christina is how much I genuinely like her and think that she's a lovely person. And and um actually there was even a special guest there um that day that was Nicole Elliott, the former Incognito there, yeah, and with her hat on um before Clint. And um similarly, a really lovely person. And my experience um in particular with with that group of regulators is that um they're they're choosing to do a hard thing by regulating cannabis as opposed to something else that they could regulate. Um and so they're they're probably there because they have an interest in it as well.

Ben Larson 7:30

Yeah. Well, to that point, I think it's only fitting that we're hosting this in Oklahoma City, which famously launched with I think it was 15 pages of legislation, which is certainly not enough for an entire framework. And it ballooned to, I think, well in excess of 13,000 licensees, which then created a bunch of inversion diversion problems. And they've been recoiling from that ever since. I I think it's taken like five years to like, you know, really try to put some some bounds on it. I think it took them nearly that long to to get track and trace. So imagine trying to do a regulated cannabis system without any of that in place, and and credit to the director here uh of being put into that with the mission of of putting everything on the rails and thinking about the chaos that ensues with that. Um, but huge thank you to Christina and Clint. Um, I have ran into both of them here, uh, so they are fully engaged and absorbing it all. Um, Clint as as a new director, Christina as as a veteran of of the office. But um Yeah, you know, I think honestly, the the intentions on the whole are largely good, and the regulators are often putting put in the place of interpreting the laws that are imperfect and constantly changing. And and you know, it was funny. It's like there was a part of me that uh empathized with with them when it was pointed out that, oh, and you know, they have the fun of running an agency, which turns out to be a lot of HR. And I'm like, yep, yep, that's that's the job.

AnnaRae Grabstein 9:12

Yeah, I I think that in in California, which is the the state that I know best, um, it has become really complicated uh for the regulators to kind of choose a policy path that is going to work for everyone. And I'm sure that this is common in lots of other states, but we do have more licenses in California, maybe, maybe not as many as Oklahoma, but I think that there's about it's either eight or nine thousand licensees across the supply chain. And um, there's a lot more kind of up supply chain businesses than there are retailers. There's about 1,200 retailers, but a number of those retailers are um are individual licenses that are multiple that are owned by one group. Like maybe somebody has 30 dispensaries or someone has 20 dispensaries, another group has 50 dispensaries. And so those um retail businesses really are some of the largest businesses in the state, and they have a lot of power, which has uh created um, I think an outsized investment in communication with the state because they have more resources to just explain their perspective and to protect their side. Whereas up supply chain, it's a lot more small businesses that are just struggling to survive and to hopefully make friends with those retailers. So it's interesting to put ourselves in the position of the regulators of what are the messages that they're hearing, how are they metabolizing that to help them make good decisions? Uh and and I think that people think of the industry as the as one industry, but really there's just a lot of different perspectives and incentives uh for different types of policy decisions. Um, like a business that maybe operates in manufacturing and does regulated cannabis and hemp has a very different perspective than a um a small indoor cultivator in a legacy community

California Regulators And Metrc Friction

AnnaRae Grabstein 11:20

that is just trying to get on a dispensary shelf compared to a retailer.

Ben Larson 11:25

Yeah. So I think that was highlighted by by the session hosted at Meadow on on Friday. You know, it's just like for instance, anytime hemp was mentioned, I felt the conversation immediately diverted to um synthetic cannabinoids and wanting to test around and find the impurities and all that. And I'm like, it's it the conversation's a lot bigger than that. And and was pointed out by the crowd, it's like and you can't completely demonize it because the cannabis industry may be leveraging synthetic cannabinoids. Just throwing it out there.

AnnaRae Grabstein 12:09

Yeah. And another thing that everyone seemed to agree on in the room uh was the frustration with metric and the way that the uh state's contract with metric uh drives up licensing fees and cost of administration, even separate from kind of the the operational layer of complexity that operators have to deal with. But the um the state pays, it sounds like 21 cents per data point. Uh that it was a plant tag. And so it was an actual physical thing. Um, but now through legislative action and kind of optimization, there are moves to not force a plant tag on every single plant, but it doesn't sound like that is actually going to reduce the cost of entering that data point into metric. And there are millions and millions of plants um that need to be entered into track and trace in order to stay compliance. And so this contractual cost is creating this massive drag and and um everyone is pissed about it. It seems like the regulators um are being careful what they say, but they would obviously prefer to um not have this financial um kind of this cost weighing on their back, just like the operators um would like to see administrative costs go down across the board.

Ben Larson 13:36

Yeah, I last week on This Week in Cannabis, I expressed my opinion a little bit loosely about metric and plant tags and basically equated it to inventing the cubicle. Um and I have to thank Jay and the cultivated team for for clipping that out and putting it on LinkedIn. Um but I stand by it. You know, it's like I I I'm sitting in that meeting on Friday, I'm just like, yeah, these plant tags are a scourge on the on the industry. And uh the fact that it's contracted in the state to be like at like on the digital level, like there's no scalability to it. And it sounds like like the state is actually losing money on some of these these larger groves, which I don't know if that's their fault or metrics or whoever, but like you know, it's just it's a system that needs to change.

AnnaRae Grabstein 14:26

Yeah. Well, um, either way, I want to just publicly thank David Hua. I think that he is a true treasure to all of us, and uh and Meadow is a great company, people should go check out his POS. They've been around for a really long time, they've supported small operators. I know that they're really focused um on expansion into the Northeast in New York and New Jersey. Um, and they've

Debt Financing As A Survival Tool

AnnaRae Grabstein 14:50

long been a very popular solution in California. So big shout out to Meadow. Um yeah, and so you're at Canra. Uh next week I will be in Ignite It and I will be there to just network with the industry, but I'll also be um on stage uh moderating a discussion about debt and um what's available, how folks qualify, what actually works. And um debt doesn't sound that interesting, but the reality is that capital fuels a lot of things um in cannabis, and there is not a lot of equity capital these days to go around. And so most operators are utilizing um outside debt sources of some kind. So I'm excited to have the conversation and try to get people's questions answered so so that operators are more confident understanding what the solutions are that are available to them.

Ben Larson 15:49

Yeah, I mean, it's an important conversation. I've I've I've long felt that debt should be the I mean, easier said than done in this industry. I'll acknowledge that. But in this industry, debt should be the first stop that people think about versus equity, because actually providing returns on equity haven't been proven over the last well, forever decade for me. You know, it's and so it's like it's not a venture scalable industry at this rate. Maybe if you're true leave and you are friends with the federal government in creating opportunities like that, then you know, maybe, but like few and far between. And so, you know, if you have good business fundamentals and you're running a good business, then you should be able to go and get debt. Now, in talking to some of these banks, like I understand that if you're not doing $10 million of revenue, then then debt is is not something that they're particularly interested in providing you. Um, but you know, it's it's it's it just seems like a more sustainable, viable path forward um as a capital source.

AnnaRae Grabstein 16:56

Yeah, and it is, that's exactly right. It is a viable path forward. And if you are running a real business, which hopefully you are, then then you can find somebody that will lend to you. It's true. So I don't know.

Ben Larson 17:09

In this industry, one day you're thinking you're running a real business, and then the next day the government tries to tell you otherwise.

AnnaRae Grabstein 17:15

Oh shout out to all the hemp operators

Trulieve Hits NYSE And Stock Pain

AnnaRae Grabstein 17:20

listening. Sorry guys. Uh so all right, well, moving on. Um, other things that I'm paying attention to there, you can't avoid hearing about all the IPOs that are going on in tech land. SpaceX, Anthropic, OpenAI. And at the same time, there's just been a lot of public stock discussion around cannabis. And there is an announcement from TrueLeave that happened, I think it was on Friday morning, um, that they are going to be listing on the New York Stock Exchange. And that launches tomorrow, June 10th. So many of you will be listening to this when um you could theoretically go buy TrueLeaf on the NYSE. And I think that we've got a number of other um public cannabis stocks that have made moves and are certainly looking at ways to pull this off, and that has to do with those reverse stock splits that we talked about over the course of the past week or so. So it's it's kind of a big, big move. Are you gonna be running out and um buying any of these IPOs or the cannabis stocks, Ben?

Ben Larson 18:30

No, uh well, not the cannabis ones. Uh, you know, I my financial advisor uh years ago said you're a little over-index on cannabis. Maybe you want to diversify a little bit. So I'm I'm just gonna stick with that. And it's never worked out well for me investing in cannabis stocks. So I don't anticipate starting now. But quick question like before we hopped on, you were talking about having a Schwab account. Uh, did you get an allocation for for SpaceX? Or are you gonna go buy some SpaceX?

AnnaRae Grabstein 18:59

Um, I haven't put in for getting an allocation, and so that probably means that I can't get one, but I'm curious. I'm watching all of these stocks for sure, and I wonder, you know, my um my parents bought some Apple stock very, very early, not at IPO. I wish it was at IPO. But even so, I think there are these generational moments in our lifetimes where there were stocks that that if if you buy bought them at this generational moment, it could really change your life. And I've been thinking about are these new IPOs an example of that? And I think for me personally, as someone that isn't a super experienced um and successful stock trader, I'm more gonna be waiting that four to six months. There's a six-month lockup usually when companies go public. And so after the six-month mark, there's often a time where a bunch of employees will sell their shares. And so then that's when I would maybe kind of look at uh buying some of these, but I don't think that I just have the energy and the focus to fight my way in to get some of these stocks. And and I already have some other stocks that are index funds that will be investing in these IPOs. So I figure that's that's a good strategy.

Ben Larson 20:15

Um yeah, I I mean I'm not a financial advisor by any means, and this is not a financial show, but no. Last bit of commentary is I think you'll see your classic pop and drop with with the uh with the true leave. SpaceX, a little bit of a different beast because I think 30% out is 30% is going out to the retail market. And so I do believe the institutional will be trying to like capture as much as they can so they can hold it because they believe in the long-term vision of of the opportunity. Um, so I think we might see a little bit more of a a classic um growth opportunity there, but not to say that I'm gonna be completely wrong.

AnnaRae Grabstein 20:54

Yeah, it's a tough one. The the value of SpaceX already at the price that it's going public at is so astronomically high. Uh and at the same time, uh, Elon Musk has done an incredible job of creating shareholder value over the course of his career. And I really believe in Starlink as a product. I don't know so much about you know moving to Mars or that whole vision, but Starlink is incredible. I'm using it.

Ben Larson 21:24

I mean, I gotta say, 75% of the flights I've been on this year have had really spotty or like non-existent Wi-Fi, including my two flights last night. And I cannot

Starlink On Planes And Smart Deals

Ben Larson 21:35

wait until Starlink is on every flight because I had it once uh in the past year and it was amazing.

AnnaRae Grabstein 21:44

Well, and I know that we are diverging from our cannabis topic, but I think all of this is relevant, and I really truly believe that it's incredibly important to pay attention to what's going on in the world broadly as ways that we can wear lenses into business. And so since we're talking about Starlink and Airplane. Um, you know, Starlink uh signed a deal with United to put Starlink on their flights. And as part of that deal, they prohibited United from charging people for the internet. So that Starlink becomes basically a miracle when you are on a United flight and it just works, and you can stream YouTube and you could do whatever you want. We could probably be podcasting from a United airplane if we wanted. But I think that this idea of doing this partnership and however much you know, United is paying Starlink for it, or maybe Starlink's even paying United, but this prohibition against charging the consumer for the internet and making Starlink this miracle uh of a consumer experience, I think is just a brilliant example of the way that partnerships and deals can be structured to have certain outcomes that drive consumer behavior. And uh I think that this is just was a was clever on Starlink's part to make it so that that it would be a differentiated internet product compared to all the other internet Wi-Fi that people are having to pay for on flight. So I thought that was pretty cool. Um I support that enormously and probably miracle of internet.

Ben Larson 23:18

So do all the people flying around right now, specifically probably to New York, because of all the excitement that's happening in New York.

AnnaRae Grabstein 23:26

And and back to the the True Leave and cannabis stock piece. Um, we've got I know that the cannabis stocks that recently did their consolidations, kind of the the top guys are all on Robinhood uh right now. So even though they're still listed in Canada, you can buy them that way. But also, like like you mentioned, I have my brokerage account as Wish Schwab, and I have been able to freely lose money on cannabis stocks in Canada for years. Um, and have certainly been purchasing them and losing money on them for um as long as they've been available. Uh, I've got some line items in my brokerage account that are um a complete embarrassment. Uh, but at the same time, overall the portfolio looks good. Just if I took the cannabis stocks out, it would look a lot better.

Ben Larson 24:16

I think it was Aaron Edelheid from Mindset that was saying that like it's your tax for being in the industry. Like, you need to support these because of the general sentiment signal uh to the outside world. Uh, I don't know if I fully agree with him, but uh it he would I think it was I think it was Aaron that was making that.

AnnaRae Grabstein 24:35

I think it might have been Heather Malloy also was saying same thing, yeah, about buying MSOS. Um, which I have some MSOS, it isn't in as bad of a position as some of the other stocks that I've purchased. Like I had uh some state house stock that uh literally lost 100% and is no longer public anymore. And if anyone knows how to somehow erase it from my brokerage account because it just shows a zero dollars loss of a hundred percent, it just stays there, harassing me quietly.

Ben Larson 25:09

You know, it's funny. Uh somewhat related, I received, you know, like the shareholder documents that public companies send up. I got one for Glasshouse, and I'm like, where do I own Glasshouse? And so I have to go back through like my portfolio and stuff and see like what company was acquired. Um, because now I'm getting these these notices of shareholder meetings.

AnnaRae Grabstein 25:30

Oh, so you're a glasshouse shareholder and you didn't even know it. Fairly uh well, so in other news, and uh this is for Jay Rosenthal. If you're listening out there, Jay, we're gonna talk about sports for a minute. Um sports last night was a big night in sports ball. NBA finals in New York City at Madison Square Garden. Uh the Knicks lost to the Spurs uh in a big upset on on the home field. Is it called the home field? It's not a field, right? When it's basketball home court home course home court, yeah.

Ben Larson 26:11

Wow, okay. So so yeah, the billionaires are gonna be making their money. Everyone's happy uh on that layer. Uh yeah.

AnnaRae Grabstein 26:17

Well, there were some notable people there. Did you see?

Ben Larson 26:20

I did not see it. No, I was flying to Oklahoma City.

AnnaRae Grabstein 26:24

We uh so Trump was in a VIP box with a bunch of members of the cabinet. Um, Zoran Mamdani was in the nosebleed seats way up in the top with a crew, just looking like a man of the people. Um at courtside, you had lots of notables like um Spike Lee and Ben Stiller, who often are courtside at a next game. Um, I think that there were some other folks too, but yeah, it was it's definitely a who's who. And um at some point, apparently they showed um Trump and his box on the on the big screen, and there were

Congress, Bipartisanship, And Schedule Three

AnnaRae Grabstein 27:05

loud boos heard throughout the stadium.

Ben Larson 27:07

Yeah, it's New York. It's Mondani Land.

AnnaRae Grabstein 27:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And uh it did get me thinking, though, a little bit about what did these boos for Trump mean for us in cannabis? And uh I think that it feels like the tide is starting to turn for Trump a little bit. He's getting Congress to start pushing back on some of the things that are most important to his agenda. Um, in particular, this immigration spending bill that Congress um just put a stop to. And and some Republicans are really starting to speak out about the anti-weaponization fund. And that caused Trump to pull back, sort of. And um for better or for worse, no matter where you fall in policy, what we've seen with this most recent Trump administration is more progress for cannabis than we've seen under any other administration that I can remember. And if Trump doesn't have Congress's support in the same way, are they going to move his cannabinoid agenda forward?

SPEAKER_02 28:21

Hmm.

Ben Larson 28:24

It's an interesting question. Um I don't know if I see a ton of evidence of Trump slowing down, but you you might be right. The one thing I will say with hemp and cannabis, uh maybe separately or maybe together, is is that they are bipartisan issues. Um they touch both blue and red states in different ways, and there's support on on both both sides of the aisle. And so in an event that Congress presents a a fix and it, you know, sure, maybe it's um maybe it's encouraged by the White House in a certain fashion, but if it's promoted by Congress in a bipartisan bill, um would the ability for certain Republicans not to vote on the party lines encourage Democrats to also follow suit and just truly vote the way they think it should go. Um I'm not saying that gives it a better chance or anything, but like I hate it when a policy gets presented and it's merely just people voting on the party lines. I'd rather people use their discerning minds and and vote in the way that they think is actually good for the American public. And I think that actually bodes well for cannabinoids in in general.

AnnaRae Grabstein 29:42

I got a bit of a chill. It makes me feel hopeful to hear you even explain that something like that could occur where people could just vote based on what they think is best as opposed to party lines. There hasn't been a ton of examples of that, but it's it's true. We are starting to see it. And even it was this week with a few Republicans deciding to vote with Democrats, but it still seems to all come with this narrative of a couple people in one party are flipping and going with the other. I have yet to see a good example of a mix of both sides coming together to say yes, while a mix of both sides were saying no.

Ben Larson 30:23

Yeah. Well, it's it's it's interesting. You know, it's like downstairs being a great example of red and blue coming together and having conversations, even being friends and and trying to solve problems together. And I think a lot of folks, and and it's interesting to see this at the state level where they're looking up at Congress and be like, what the hell is going on up there? Right. And there, I I think I heard something like 58% of Congress is turning over. And wow, that's a large amount. And I think there's I think there's a lot of change afoot just because of the pressures that the administration is is creating on the system. And so I don't know. Maybe we'll eventually get that draining of the swamp. It's like you can't go around it, you gotta go through the swamps. And I I think we're just going through it, maybe right now. This is my optimistic mind. I think you're gonna tell I have an optimistic bent on on everything.

AnnaRae Grabstein 31:20

But uh Yeah. And we're we're facing this DEA hearing that is starting on June 29th, I believe. Uh so in 20 days from today, that is going to be diving into the rescheduling uh order and considering adult use as uh potentially becoming included in schedule three. And I think that we're gonna see some really interesting perspectives come out. And I don't really know what to expect here. I don't know who's gonna be testifying, but it's a little bit outside of it is outside of Congress. It's it's a whole different process. This is now with an administrative law judge and um and an agency. And there has been a clear directive from the president about Schedule Three, but it didn't create the specificity to answer some of the questions that this hearing is going to address. So I think that we're we're in for a wild ride to see who the different parties are at the table or if there's partisanship or not, um, or if it's more business interests. It's it has become pretty clear that the that that Sam, the group that has continued to uh push back on any type of legalization at the federal level, is spearheading uh opposition and is bringing together different stakeholder groups, but clearly they're the ones that are behind it. And are there other other groups that are prominent or that matter that are gonna get in the way? I think it it remains to be seen, but we'll certainly be watching.

Ben Larson 33:03

Yeah, I just had I'm just having to check my my agenda right now. I am curious if if um if if Sam is still on the panel uh with me next week or uh or tomorrow.

AnnaRae Grabstein 33:18

Um Sam was scheduled to be on the panel with you at Canada.

Ben Larson 33:23

Yeah, yeah. Mr. Sabet himself.

AnnaRae Grabstein 33:26

Wow, that's a big deal. Will you at least do a thumb war with the guy?

Ben Larson 33:31

I have I would love to. I've got I've got strong thumbs.

AnnaRae Grabstein 33:37

Thumb war for legalization.

Ben Larson 33:39

Uh that would be hilarious.

AnnaRae Grabstein 33:40

Because if I was there, I might punch him in the face, but maybe just like a maybe a thumb war for for progress would be cool.

Ben Larson 33:47

We'll see. I'll send you an update. I can't

Louisiana Setback And Idaho Power Grab

Ben Larson 33:50

send video or audio.

AnnaRae Grabstein 33:54

So a couple notable things in the state level to talk about as well. Um, Louisiana, which has an existing medical program that's very small, appears to have just killed their adult use legislation. Um, and at the same time, it was there was a bill that was trying to move. It did not. And the governor did sign a separate bill that was actually a recriminalization bill that um criminalizes different types of cannabis activities um more specifically. So this was kind of a eh, well, Louisiana, uh, we know you like to party, and I guess you're gonna make it harder for yourself for a little while longer. Um so yeah.

Ben Larson 34:42

So I I just just for the sake of of the record, I I just checked our agenda and it looks like he's no longer on there. So maybe he went running with his tail between his legs because he took the loss at the total level.

AnnaRae Grabstein 34:55

All right. Well, well, Kevin Sabet, if you're listening, um I would like to challenge you to a thumb war. And um my my thumbs are also very long, but um, you know, how long according to your your trainer, you're a complete psycho. Correct. I've been working out my thumbs with my personal trainer, ready for that moment.

California AI Tool For Kid-Safe Labels

SPEAKER_02 35:20

That's right.

AnnaRae Grabstein 35:21

Um okay, back back to our state rundown. Um, you sent me this morning a new tool that the California Department of Cannabis Control launched that is an AI tool to voluntarily look at a label and decide if it appeals to children. Because one of the rules is that packaging is not supposed to appeal to children.

Ben Larson 35:47

So this is so exciting to see, like, yeah, it's so exciting to see an agency actually leverage the tools and technology that are available to us nowadays. Like we've talked about this all the time, uh like how much we could catch from a regulatory perspective, like from an enforcement perspective, just by analyzing the data. You know, we have track and trace, like it is a treasure trove of information, and we're not doing anything seemingly with it. But yeah, you leveraging AI image like to like at least and it's not even an enforcement tool. It's it's a it's for product designers or maybe the general public to evaluate packaging and and get an assessment as to whether something is attractive to children. How accurate is, I don't know. Did you did you try it?

AnnaRae Grabstein 36:34

So I I did try it. Um, unfortunately, it didn't work. Uh, but I don't think it's my fault. I think it's their fault. So I think they've made a great effort to try to do something good. Um the way that it works, it's a web-based tool. And uh you just click on this website, and there's a very clear, simple user interface that says upload a photo from your phone. So you click on it, and I selected a photo of a product. I actually selected a photo of a cup of noodles because that was a product that I had just texted my husband from Costco on Sunday to ask him if he liked that flavor. And I had it there ready to go. So I tried to upload this picture of cup of noodles, and unfortunately, there is a size restriction on their tool that you cannot upload a picture that is more than four megabytes. And then I went back and tried to upload another picture from my phone, and it seems that every picture on my phone is too large to be uploaded into their tool, so it actually isn't as simple as it looks. There needs to be some sort of resizing feature added to make this simple for people to use. But cool idea anyway, guys. Nice try with AI.

Ben Larson 37:51

If there are any nerds in the audience that understand why this is such a barrier for platforms, and it's like, I feel like this is something you should be able to just go vibe code tonight and fix and maybe make it mobile friendly. But like anyone that's worked with like company pages on LinkedIn, all that kind of stuff, it it it they make you put a very specific pixel like dimension on on the images you upload. And I'm like, this feels like something very simple for a program to be able to take an image, resize it, and make it usable. Anyways, I I digress.

AnnaRae Grabstein 38:27

Yeah, uh yeah, I agree. Please fix it. But cool idea. I've said for a long time that um some type of formal label approval process would actually really benefit operators, especially if it was voluntary the way that this tool is. I don't think that this tool is going to uh count as actual label approval, but um I will play with it and see if I can get it to flag different things as friendly to children once I can get it to accept a picture that I take.

Ben Larson 39:04

Well, first you're gonna have to convert it from H E I C to JPEG, and then you're gonna have to downsize it and then upload it.

AnnaRae Grabstein 39:11

WTF. Um Idaho. You seeing what's going on there?

Ben Larson 39:18

Idaho.

AnnaRae Grabstein 39:20

Utah?

Ben Larson 39:21

Um I I deleted Idaho. That that's how Canada became the 51st state, was because Puerto Rico slid into the 50th and then Canada became the 51st, because Idaho just does not exist to me because of their cannabis policy. They have great ski country up there, but you know.

AnnaRae Grabstein 39:38

I know I'm going on an epic river rafting trip in Idaho this summer. Is that the Snake River? Uh the it's the salmon river and the snake river, actually. And they both start with lesses, but yes, um, both rivers are there. Apparently, it's like one of the top most beautiful places in all of North America. Uh, and I will basically go to jail if I uh have cannabis on my person, so I will not. Um, it is very it is prohibition country, big time in Idaho. And um there have been a group of constituents and activists that have been trying to and talking about putting a ballot measure to the voters because ballot measures actually are available to voters in Idaho compared to some other states that don't allow them to legalize um medical cannabis. And um as yeah, just as a a note, we uh of those 50 states, 42 states now have a medical cannabis program of some kind. So there's really not a lot of states left, like Idaho, that are holding on to their prohibitionist ways. But Idaho made a big move, and the legislature is working to create a law that would actually stop voters from being able to legalize cannabis at the ballot box and only allow any type of cannabis legalization to happen through the legislature, which I guess is something that they are allowed to do. Even though there are ballot initiatives, they're able to put restrictions on what can and cannot go to the voters, as opposed to moving through their state um legislative process. So this um to me is a is a huge bummer in that I have seen more cannabis progress come from voters than from legislators, and especially these legislatures don't seem particularly uh optimistic around medical cannabis progress.

Ben Larson 41:38

Taking power away from the general public in a democratic society sounds dare I say anti-American. I I don't know how common this is, but if I'd be fucking pissed. Sorry. I just like like hold these legislators accountable. Like, don't take the power away from the people. That seems antithetical to what our country is built on. Um yeah, anyways, I'll stop.

AnnaRae Grabstein 42:05

This is uh this is deep make America great again country. So I think your point is well taken. Uh that democracy is about the people having a voice. So uh Idahoans, uh, I'm sorry if your voice gets taken away from you, but let's um let's not let's not stop and try to make sure that all it's a slippery slope.

Ben Larson 42:27

Like, yeah, maybe you don't like cannabis, but like do you want this decision to be made about other topics? Like it just seems so obvious it's an obvious abuse of power. I I I think I'll I'll just stop. I it I can't believe people are so stupid.

AnnaRae Grabstein 42:47

Well, um you're not gonna end on that. I know give me something else. Come on. That was that was my last point. Uh something a little bit more um

Lab Standards Momentum And Final Takeaways

AnnaRae Grabstein 43:00

positive here. I I will say that um overall that there feels like there is more optimism and progress going on in cannabis today than there has in a long time. And so even though we sit here um behind a camera and a microphone and we complain about what's going on in Idaho, there is tremendous effort being made and progress happening all over the place. And what Ben, what you were attending in Oklahoma, I think is a great example of that. And hats off to those regulators that are doing the work to educate themselves, to connect with stakeholders outside of their own regulatory offices to understand what's most important to the industry, to all the stakeholders, and to the consumers.

Ben Larson 43:47

Yeah. As as my last call, not that you're asked. Um please make it. But I I know it's hard to celebrate regulators sometimes, but they um, you know, they Are gathering to do the work, they have to work in order to gather. Like they have to get their budget approved, they have to like make it happen and set aside the time to do so. They are doing that. They're opening up their ears and hearts, hopefully, to different ideas. Um and and just one signal that things are moving in a positive direction is that um there is a panel being uh created so that there could be lab standards shared from state to state so that we can create a contiguous lab, you know, system, I guess, that creates consistency from state to state. And so that is a a strong signal of progress for anyone that's been operating multi-state for for the last decade. And um, you know, another note of progress is I think the general sentiment that I'm hearing around the kind of rescheduling and the DEA process is not that they're trying to create a list so that they know who to go after and prosecute, but that this is an actual step to start framing up like who is trying to operate, you know, appropriately at the federal level, at the state level, and that even if you're not a perfect applicant, at least maybe you're trying to go through the process and that maybe that's better than not going through it at all. Um you know, this is not legal advice. Definitely go talk to your attorneys, but um that is what I'm picking up from the various voices here.

AnnaRae Grabstein 45:40

I know you said that was supposed to be a last call, but you just opened up the door talking about standardized lab testing across states. And um, I know you're very excited about that. A big topic. Um the reason that I'm excited about it is that standards that one standard is this massive unlock to being able to create a unified industry. Uh, and the idea about Schedule Three potentially unlocking interstate commerce is basically null and void as long as there are different quality standards and different markets. It's the biggest roadblock to creating that type of unification. But also, there have been so many different quality standards created without lack of with excuse me, with a lack of scientific knowledge to create those standards. And I think that like um microbiological contaminants are a great example where some states have just fully outlawed um any amount of of certain molds in in their product out of fear and caution. And um, I understand why that happens, but I think that the idea that there could be a unified quality standard and lab testing standard would be the impetus to really dive into real studies, real public health data to figure out what makes sense and then implement it broadly. So I'm really excited about that. And I'll be standing by.

Ben Larson 47:15

Well, and a huge shout out to David Valencour and Darwin Millard from ASTM. Many of you know them. Um, they're persistently in the room, they're here, and you know, we're proud of Vertosa to be working on at least four standards with them, especially when it comes to cannabis beverages. Um, but it's group bodies like ASTM working with these government agencies to really like help proliferate these standards. And it is happening, you know, and so as people look to professionalize and and adopt this, like do be on the lookout for these standards. We can self-regulate and and um adopt ahead of being forced to.

AnnaRae Grabstein 47:58

Sounds good. I think that's our show today. Why don't you read us out?

Ben Larson 48:03

All right, all right. What do you think, folks? Let us know. It was a little ad hoc. Was it okay? Uh we I think we did pretty good. Um we had plenty of content. We went longer than we expected. Uh please drop us that like, review, share, all the things on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you watch us, or even if you're watching right here live on LinkedIn. Thank you to our teams at Virtosa and Wolfmeyer, and of course, our producer, Eric Rossetti. He's right there. Hey Eric. All right. Until next time, folks, stay curious, stay informed, and keep your spirits high. That's the show.