A Candid Host-Only Check-In

Ben Larson 0:00

Hey everybody, welcome to episode 139 of High Spirits. I'm Ben Larson and I'm Anna Ray Grabstein. And today is a different kind of episode. Uh no guests, just Anna Ray and me. We've been talking a lot lately about what's actually going on in our businesses, our lives, and our relationship with the industry. And we just thought uh let's do it on air.

AnnaRae Grabstein 0:23

Yeah, I've been genuinely looking forward to this one. It's felt like there's been some things that have been unsaid. We've been talking to a ton of leaders, um, but we haven't been making time to talk about ourselves and what's been going on um in our own worlds and our own business in a really substantive way. So here we are, and we're gonna do it today.

Ben Larson 0:41

Yeah, I want to say up front, uh, this is not polished. Uh I was doing a lot of reflecting over the weekend, uh, so I'm I'm happy to just jump in, be honest, and and see what we uncover.

AnnaRae Grabstein 0:53

Yeah. Well, let's start with our regular check-in. It was holiday weekend. Uh, what'd you get into this weekend, Ben?

Ben Larson 0:59

Oh, what'd I get into? Um, well, we'll unpack a lot of this, uh, but like I just felt kind of numb coming into the weekend. I feel like I've been caring so much uh that you know I wasn't particularly happy. I wasn't angry or stressed. It was just like just and it was it was kind of hard to like feel myself and uh very appreciative that I got to spend a lot of time with with my family and just like hanging out around the house, had my parents over for dinner, cooked like a nice dinner. Um and then yeah, I cleaned out our garage for the second weekend in a row, uh, because you know, we're we're expecting a uh a baby in about a month, and it it's getting real, really real. Um, so reorganizing everything, making sure that everything has a place because I expect everything to go back into disarray, and it's better to do that from a clean slate than something that's already in disarray.

AnnaRae Grabstein 1:59

Yeah. Uh well, first that I think that's the first time you said on air anything about the new baby coming. So congratulations. Um, I'm so excited for you, and it's a big deal to be growing your family. And I also know how important it is to do this nesting exercise that you're in. And so cleaning out the garage is so important, and I'm so glad to know that you're doing that. I bet it makes your wife feel a lot more comfortable about all of the things that you just can't predict going into this next chapter right now.

Ben Larson 2:29

Yes, cleaning has suddenly become her love language, which I'm just leaning into it because it's like I'm good at doing things, and like when I when I know what I need to do, it's just like, all right, project, project, project. And um, yeah, lots of time at Home Depot and doing that kind of stuff.

AnnaRae Grabstein 2:44

God, and you know, I should have reached out to you on Saturday because it sounds like we were feeling really similar in some ways. I was feeling really blah as well, and I was able to turn it around on Sunday, but and I'll tell you about that in a second. Uh, but it was this weird situation towards the end of my week last week where I decided that I really wanted to go to Bottle Rock, this music festival that was happening locally. And I started trying to get tickets sold out through all these different ticket outlets or like Facebook marketplace groups. And um, I just kept almost getting scammed over and over again by people that were like supposedly selling tickets, but then were trying to get me to send them money before they would send me a real ticket. And then I was able to use my brain to realize that what they were suggesting was just like completely not legit. And it was really freaking disheartening. And I was just like, why are there so many goddamn scammers out there trying to steal my money when all I'm trying to do is go have a good time and see some music? And at the same time, I was fighting with this company, an online company that I was just trying to like process an order with, and there was some problems being processed, and I was being basically tormented by bots. Like I kept sending this company an email, and then I would get this gaslighting bot email back being like, You're so right, and we understand why you're so frustrated. Oh my gosh. We we have we have sent your complaint to our human team for further processing, and it was just like this endless cycle. I couldn't reach a human, and these bots were being so nice to me that I wanted to throw my computer through a wall. And between that and the scammer, I was just like, fuck this, fuck the world.

Ben Larson 4:38

Light it all on fire.

AnnaRae Grabstein 4:40

What is going on?

Ben Larson 4:43

Oh my god, I totally feel that. I I actually have one good example of of a bot working in my favor. Like I was, I think I was calling Xfinity or something, and there was like a mischarge, and I I just you know, you prep the whole case in your head, and you're like, I'm gonna get these. And and and then I typed it all in and it said, okay, your refund has been processed. And I was like, Oh, oh, that was a lot easier than I expected. Okay, and I feel like if I was actually dealing with a human, they would have read me the right act and I would have had to ask for the manager and all this kind of stuff. And I was really glad I didn't have to go through all that. So I don't know, it's yeah, but at the end of the day, we we we also have gone through the the scammers on on Facebook Marketplace, and you know, again, my my wife being pregnant, she's been like trying to like make sure that we have all the things and like not go, you know, pay out the the nose for it all. And she has gotten it's happened so much that she's able to determine like what is an actual mom versus someone that's trying to scam a mom. And you know, part of that process is like, oh well, where do they live? What's the address? Does it match like the product that they're selling in, you know, yeah.

AnnaRae Grabstein 5:55

And when they send you your the Venmo, if it's like a funny man's name, but the person that you're communicating with is like a woman with like a completely different, like totally fake picture. So it's just these are the skills that we have to have in life now, are these like weird tentacles to um to first of all realize when you're talking to a bot or navigate and identify a scammer and then not get get kind of pulled into it. So anyway, I didn't end up going to the music festival. I was just like, screw this, I can't get these tickets, I'm not gonna spend $900 for one day. Um, and I just kind of had a shitty Saturday, but um, I turned it around because on Sunday we got out on a pontoon boat with friends in the sunshine on Lake Sonoma, which is a local lake to near where I am. And it was just good. It was like the good medicine of spending time with humans and nature and sunshine and delicious beverages and just yeah, the good shit. Um, yeah, that makes you realize that it's okay to have kind of those low days where you question society and question all the things because you get to offset it with the good stuff in life. Um and then um, and then yesterday for the day off, I always go to my personal trainer for weight training on Mondays. And um, I reached out to my trainer to find out if anybody had canceled and if it was possible to book an extra session. And I brought my son with me. And um we both got to train. Yeah. Just so it's so cool. I love that. I just find that like getting to take him to the gym with me and show him when I'm working really hard and trying to do something that I almost can't do or failing at something, like getting to a weight that's too heavy. Um, I feel really proud in that moment to show him that. And so yeah, it was good. So it all ended on the upside.

Ben Larson 7:57

How how did he feel coming out of it? Like it, that's I'm assuming that's kind of a new environment for the two of you to to share.

AnnaRae Grabstein 8:04

Um, well, he he's actually come with me before and he likes it there. And he's too small to use a lot of the machines, and his focus is kind of half-assed, to be honest, when he's trying to do the weight training. Like he doesn't want to keep his posture in a position that's safe. And so it's in some ways, it was probably a waste of my money, um, but not a waste of time. And I think it's good. I didn't grow up with parents that showed me how to exercise. I really had to learn that later in my life. And I think of anything, just trying to uh create space where a young person gets to see an adult being able to figure out how to integrate um health into our life is a good example.

Ben Larson 8:54

So yeah, uh Alistair has been asking to come to the gym with me, and I have many responses to this. First, like getting, I'm like, but I go at five in the morning, or there's no way you're gonna get up that early. He's like, just wake me up. I'm like, okay. But also, I'm like, no, this is my personal time, and you're gonna mess it all up. Um, no matter how much I love spending time with you. Um, because that the the gym time, as you know, is has been very important for for my mental health and kind of helping me work through these these times where I'm not exactly feeling in touch or centered.

AnnaRae Grabstein 9:31

I know. Well, maybe that's our segue.

Ben Larson 9:35

Um, let's go deep into

Hemp Beverage Boom Meets Reality

Ben Larson 9:40

the darkness.

AnnaRae Grabstein 9:44

Well, so you know what what's going on? Where are we actually? Um yeah, what's what's happening in your world right now? I mean, as a founder.

Ben Larson 9:56

That's the question. Okay. Uh where are we? Um yeah, I think part of my reflections this weekend was that we've uh collectively as an industry have been going through a lot. And for us in particular at Virtosa, you know, very heavily indexed on the trajectory of the beverage category. And we, you know, we work with edibles, we work in hemp and regulate cannabis Canada. Um, but by and large, the last two years has been this massive run-up of hemp beverages, uh, which is a lot of fun. You know, in cannabis, we get so used to the challenges of navigating um the oppressive regulatory environment. Um, but to feel what felt like two solid years of just excitement and growth and new operators coming in, new retailers coming in, new distributors coming in, growth, growth, growth. And supporting that and being laser focused on it was frankly a lot of fun. It reminded me of some of the my my times in tech where you're just like building and trying to grow. And I knew the whole time that maybe this uh trajectory wasn't gonna last forever. Uh, nothing in cannabis is ever linear. Um but then like last November happened, and that reality like really sunk in. And so ever since November, it's been recalibrating a bit because while you may anticipate the changes, you can't fully anticipate them operationally because you have to be able to support the business as it grows. Um, and so as all those changes happen, like we had to quickly recalibrate the business to focus on the regulated markets, to support the political side of what's happening in in beverages and hemp, and then you know, get the team kind of pointing in the right direction. All on top of that, we're a California-based business. California has felt a certain way about hemp over the years, and so we've actually done a lot of movement regardless of what was happening at the federal level. So, all this to say, I think you know, the the business has been adjusted. We believe that the beverage category is inevitable. We're continuing to grow into edibles and regulated markets. Um but yeah, as a as a CEO, as a founder, uh the mind shift of like I guess creating space to process what it takes to be in those different modes. Like that exciting kind of growth mode versus that kind of um pragmatic, survivalist, like you know, be there for the long term kind of mode, right? And they're they're very different. And I don't think I have provided the adequate space for me to just think about that philosophically versus just the checklist of what needs to be done. And so I'm in the space now, especially as we're approaching, you know, hopefully what looks like a paternity leave, um, where the team's in a great space, we're doing all the right things, we've checked a lot of the boxes, and now I'm having time to reflect. It's like, okay, what does the next year or two or three look like? And what are all the different scenarios? Um, which is a common muscle in cannabis, but one, I guess that is just feeling very fresh again.

AnnaRae Grabstein 13:24

Yeah, I mean, this this experience that you're describing about all this momentum and acceleration that was happening through 24 and 25, and then what happened in November, it was almost like slamming on the brakes in some ways. And then it's that recovery from the whiplash of holy shit, we just slammed on the brakes so hard. And everyone just started talking about survival and how important survival is. And okay, fine, but what does that really mean? And what I'm hearing that you've gone through is this moment of like, okay, slam on the brakes. Now we need to talk about survival, but now at some point you want to get out of survival. Like, survival is not a healthy place to be. You got to have an actual plan forward of something that's manageable and clear. And you guys clearly have been doing that and refocusing on regulated, but but there's like a lot that gets left behind and kind of sadness about what that vision was and and kind of how how fast it will get there inevitably. I don't know, how does that land?

Ben Larson 14:25

Yeah, yeah. It's I wouldn't even describe it as sadness at this point because like I said, I you know, being in the industry for 10 years, you you understand the ups and downs. It's it's a quick gut check about inevitability and whether whether you're in it for the you know the length of the timeline. And so it's like during that two years, I would say in that time period, I'm like, this feels too good to be true. It's happening faster than I expected at in that moment, right? And then after it, uh after November, it's like, well, of course that was gonna happen. Um and and just really reality checking is like, do I still believe the category is still inevitable? And the answer is yes. Like there, there's so much momentum that was built, there's so much interest, and we see the consumer, we see the consumer really wants the category, and so the consumer in the end is gonna get what they want. Come hell or high water. And so it's like, how do we get there? And so, you know, I think it was it was less about, yeah, it maybe a little bit of sadness of like, oh, that's kind of sad that this is this is not happening now. Um, but at least it's gonna happen because I have witnessed plenty of other sadness where you just realize like this is a shit business model, and I'm gonna have to really pivot and change directions. And so I wouldn't even call it a pivot, it's just a diversification, a further diversification and in creating the stability to make sure that we're there when the opportunity does arise and trying to make the opportunity arise uh, you know, through our own efforts, right?

Consulting Alignment And Saying No

AnnaRae Grabstein 16:01

Well, and and I I relate to a lot of this myself because in my own practice, as I have built a consulting business over the past few years, a lot of that has been about trying to pay attention all the time of where the industry is going, where there is growth opportunity, because by paying attention to that, I can kind of flow with it and help the areas of the industry grow that are already on that natural trajectory, um, while also leaving behind the places that I have seen become stale or that were suffering kind of beyond repair. And so a lot of what was happening for me through a lot of 2025 was I was caught talking to companies that had been on that growth trajectory, Ben, that you described, and we're looking at 2026 as this year that they were going to triple their business again and then even triple it again the next year in 2027. And we're talking with me about how do we go from where we are today as a company and set ourselves up to be able to scale at that level. And then very quickly, it was like, actually, not so much. All of those 2026 plans um are different. Now we just need to survive. All of the investors that were gonna come support us this year, they need to take a deep breath, understand what's going on. And then for me in my world, it was like, okay, well, what does that mean for me? It means kind of the same. I need to do that same kind of refocusing and understanding if I was overly focused on growth as opposed to pure just optimization and alignment with what I know to be true about myself, my skills, and where I believe the consumer and the industry is going. Um, so it has been a realignment for myself around kind of core purpose ideals. Like, I know that I am most successful um when I am working with companies that I perceive to be good. And and what I mean by that is like good in intention, good to the humans, good to the planet, good to the plant, um, good to the the opportunity that in terms of the way that they're executing on it, um, as opposed to just supporting growth for growth's sake. Does that mean that I can't do that? No, but it means that like I I trust my trajectory and and kind of the safety of where I sit when I truly believe in the companies that I'm helping support and grow, if that makes sense.

Ben Larson 18:39

Yeah, totally. I I I think what you're identifying is like, you know, being in a phase where discernment and and being able to focus on the things that at least that you're good at or make you successful, um, and not spreading yourself too thin or or or or going too broad. And you know, it's it's interesting because we've gone through phases like that in our business too. Um and then largely, you know, that the the beverage category taking off really allowed us to focus all of our energy into growing that, right? And and really sharpening that part of the business. And it became easier for us to focus. Going into times like this, I mean, I even found found it this weekend as I was working through some some business planning for 27 and 28. Like, what are the areas we're gonna grow in the business if we understand that beverages continue to hit headwinds for for the next year or two, right? And I find myself like reaching into that bucket of like, oh, it's like, do we go into other form factors? Do we go into other markets outside of the US? Like um, and being very uh hesitant to like kind of like uh you know commit to that because of it feeling a stretch beyond, right? And I'm curious for for you, like how like you just want to like kind of like dig into what you were saying about that discernment, like because you know, I know in the early days, like when you're trying to make money, you're just you're saying yes to a lot, you're working with all sorts of different people on all sorts of different projects, and I want to hear a little bit how that's evolved for you, like being able to identify. Oh, I actually want to work with those people.

AnnaRae Grabstein 20:25

Yeah. Oh my gosh. Um, I kind of got chills just as you were saying that because yeah, you know, I I did not come to consulting as a consultant, I came to it as an operator, and I was sort of in an in-between phase um after leaving a company that I had started and wasn't really sure what was next. And I started saying yes to people asking for help. And it was through the process of saying yes that I realized that I really liked being able to help companies, but from sitting on the outside. And so I said yes, yes, yes all the time because that was how I thought that I was going to build this company. And then as I started to say yes more, I thought that the solution to saying yes more was bringing more people into the company. And so I brought in a partner and I brought in other people to help me in kind of strategist and analyst roles so that I could do more and keep saying yes more. Um but that started to really wear at me because some of those yeses meant that I was working with companies that I didn't always believe truly that they could execute what they were asking for my advice on, um, or that they were ready for the change that they desired. And um over the past year, a big change for myself has actually been going back to my core of as I've been creating momentum with technology and AI and and other things, actually um letting go of some. Of the other people that I was working with inside Wolfmeyer and coming back to making it just about me and what I truly want to say yes to, but also what I want to say no to. And um that culminated for me really strongly at the beginning of the year when I went on um my nonprofit board retreat to a nonprofit WOOF that I've been with for over 10 years on the board and feeling so inspired by all of the work that we were talking around mission alignment and realizing that I just wanted to be focused this year, 2026, was the year of me saying yes to only things that were aligned with my purpose and saying no to things that aren't. And so, you know, as an example of that, just like about 10 days ago, I said no to a consulting project that would have been like at least $50,000, could have been $100,000 with some amount of success fees and things like that, because it didn't feel like it supported the whole. And as I've been building my consulting business, I've realized that really what I'm doing is curating kind of a portfolio of aligned companies that by me working with them, I'm better like it's it supports everyone by me getting to be a part of all these different parts of the supply chain. Um, and I could have said yes to this company that needed my help to do something, but it was completely outside of everything else that I was working on. It was gonna be a total distraction. Um, and I don't think that it was gonna support the whole. Um, so I said no and I referred it to somebody else that could help. And I've been kind of shocked for the past 10 days. Said no to that. So I was like, am I an idiot? Am I supposed to say no every time someone offers me $50,000? And um, I don't know. I I feel good about it though, actually. It takes me back to the moments at the gym when I when my son watches me being strong. It's like those are moments where I like am sticking up for myself of like, I said that I was gonna be focused on being aligned with my work. I said that I was gonna focus on figuring out ways that my entire portfolio of clients were all gonna work together in a way that was not only non-competitive but complementary. Um, and like, do I really mean what I say? And um, and so we have to stick up for ourselves first. And so these are those moments. And I also believe that by saying no to things, um, it means that I'm making space to be able to say yes to other things.

Ben Larson 24:37

Amazing. Yeah, I'm proud of you. I I think, you know, I the there's a there's a real tax to saying yes to the wrong things, and it can show up in so many ways, right? Like if you think about if you were to go down this journey with the wrong client or customer, like that misalignment can only get bigger in the future. And like, what does that do for your reputation? Like your what what people look like look at when they see your portfolio of companies that you're working with or have worked with. Um, and I think about it a lot from the Virtosa perspective because I am the type of person who gets ex insanely excited and thinks about all the things and eternal optimist. And I've said yes to a lot of things over the years, and to my team, anyone who's been with the team, um, I'm sorry. I just like I know how much it has strained uh operations and everything at times, um, because I've said yes to so much. And you know, I'm really grateful for for the various cycles that we've been through and the team members that have supported me in thinking and realizing like how important it is to to define your boundaries and say no to people, even people that you want to say yes to, if it's not aligned and if your whole team can't support it, like like nothing is a bigger tax than than like breaking the trust of your team. And yeah, I mean I've this this is kind of visceral because I've I've been literally went through this in the last week where I I just I was struggling with um how to deal with a certain situation, but you know, at the end of the day, it's like we've had to create boundaries um for the sake of creating an efficient operational um efficient operations internal to the company.

AnnaRae Grabstein 26:29

Well, I think that there's there's like a level of fear-based opportunism that comes when we just say yes to everything. And that plays into it could be playing out in Virtosa of like saying yes to projects that that don't fit or to revenue that that isn't necessarily good revenue, or that um that maybe sometimes like in an effort to close a customer that you have to give such a deep discount that you might never be able to get out from under it. People make those decisions all the time of like, should we say yes to this in order to box out a competitor, or should we say no because this is an unprofitable move for us? And and sometimes it makes sense to say yes in that situation, and other times it doesn't. And so, like, are we looking at this from a place of strategic focus, alignment, and uh and true opportunity, or is it coming from a place of fear and scarcity? Um and if it's coming from a place of fear and scarcity, I know for myself that that feels sometimes like so big that it's it's hard enough to overcome that sometimes that that fear just kind of wins the day. And those moments when the fear doesn't win the day, I think are worth stepping back and naming, seeing, and then realizing that, like, okay, we didn't just let fear win. And what does that mean that we get to do instead? Because if you didn't choose the fear-based opportunism, what is then the opportunity that gets to to like flow into the space? How do we create that creative flow in business? Because that's that's like the good shit right there.

SPEAKER_02 28:12

Yeah, yeah.

Fear-Based Opportunism Versus Focus

Ben Larson 28:15

I um I want to take a quick tangent on this because you know we were talking about AI before we we hopped on. Um and one of the sessions, uh Mark Andreessen was recently on on Joe Rogan and they were just diving deep. It's like three-hour discussion. Um but like one of the one of the things I was thinking about was creating this advisory panel of like different voices and helping it evaluate different ideas from different perspectives and just poke holes and things. And um, you can almost do that similar to how you would lean on a board or your executive team, but for that kind of like rapid iteration of thought of like, is this a good idea? And it's like you can have people steel man not for or against it, or or just have them do both, like steel man both sides of the the decision from multiple perspectives, and then you can distill that all down for yourself. So um, yeah, I don't know, just I I I get super excited about like kind of the the technology side to allow me to kind of like work through these moments and like just kind of continue on and do the more human stuff, but like you know, yeah.

AnnaRae Grabstein 29:25

No, I'm I mean I think it's it's on point because what we're talking about in some ways is reinvention and focus and how we get there. And a huge shift during this time that we're talking about this roller coaster of cannabis policy and changes in our businesses has also been this introduction in AI into our lives, into our business. And and how has that changed this process of reinvention and adjusting to all of the changing dynamics in the market? And for me, it's been huge. It was like deciding to jump in and start to learn how to be using AI has been this unlock that has accelerated parts of what I do and has made it possible for me to reinvent myself in the way that I just said of like going back to my core and focusing because I haven't needed as many people to help me. And that's the truth, is that like things that I used to need to take a month to do and have input from four other people to share ideas as a brain trust. I don't need that brain trust anymore. I can have that brain trust with my um with my board of advisors on AI that's a combination of like Mark Cuban, Ben Larson, and Chelsea Handler. Um I'm talking through my ideas with.

Ben Larson 30:48

Yeah, and and you can you you can encourage it to not be so complimentary all the time and and have it be a little bit more critical of your ideas, which I I think is important. Um and and I I know something that you always have a critical lens to. Um, you know, something I always appreciate about you being one of one of my personal advisors is that like I don't know, I I use this, we use this term all the time. It's like you're an adult. I I I love having an adult to talk to, and no offense to all the other adults I know in this industry, but uh Anna Ray is a is a real one. And um I want to kind of unpack that a little bit because as a CEO, and I know I'm not the only one, and again, uh we don't mean the this in like in a demeaning way to anyone we work with, but it's like there's so many times where it's like I I need another adult in the room, and I know as you know, as someone who consults um successfully that that's what executives are looking for when they're hiring on um outside help. And I wonder if you can help me unpack that a little bit because I want to then turn that into advice for you know aspiring executives and and what have you. Like, what does it mean to be an adult in in the business world?

AnnaRae Grabstein 32:10

I like I I when people tell me this, I can't figure out if it's a compliment or if it's or an insult. And and I think it I take it to heart. I will say, like, I have always identified as a bit of a kid my whole life, and even as an adult, like kid with a Z, like I'm one of the kids.

Ben Larson 32:29

And maybe that's maybe that's it. Maybe that's the key. It's like understanding that we're all children, right? Um, but and therefore not taking ourselves too seriously. But is there more? Yeah.

AnnaRae Grabstein 32:42

I think there is. I mean, I think that when you're talking about about what is it about people who work with me, because it's something that comes up a lot. They say that I'm the adult in the room and that's why they want me there. And I'm like, what does that even mean? But I think a lot of it has to do with consistency, to be totally honest, is that I show up in a way that people can depend on. Um, even if it's just that I'm being highly truthful and authentic to myself. Um, but I'm pretty reliable and I say the thing when I say something and I say that I'm gonna do something, I generally do it. And I also try to be extremely well informed. Um, so that I am not speaking from a place of ignorance, but speaking from a place of depth uh in terms of understanding all the dynamics that are going on broadly. Um and I've also made a lot of mistakes along the way, and that probably is a part of what makes you a grown-up, is that you've stepped in your own shit enough times to know what it smells like before you do it again. Um, and I've certainly done that, and I'm proud of those mistakes. And oftentimes those mistakes are the things that have held me. But I think that, like, you know, being an adult, it's not about being professional um or some sort of like performative professionalism. I think it really is about consistency.

Ben Larson 34:12

Uh yeah.

AnnaRae Grabstein 34:14

I don't know. Does that land? Is that why why I'm an adult?

Ben Larson 34:17

Totally. Well, so it's it's funny because like reliability, it's like such an easy word, it's such a simple concept, but you're right. Like it's I think something that we all crave in this space. You know, it's like the first advice I got. I've told this story probably many times, but like the first advice I got when I joined the cannabis industry back in 2015 was like, it's very hard to trust people in in the space. And again, I'm I'm not like portraying everyone in the space as untrustworthy, but uh his advice to me was like know someone for six months before you even consider

Using AI As A Thought Partner

Ben Larson 34:54

them a friend, let alone do business with them. And then that's a high very high bar to reach when you're trying to do startups and rapid growth and all this kind of stuff. It's like, you know, one does not align with the other. And then also it's like it just carries over into the products, right? It's like our our space is constantly striving, or hopefully striving, uh, to create reliable products, reliable experiences, things that are consistent. And it's like, yeah, it's something that and I don't think it's unique to cannabis, but I think it's just something um that we crave, especially as business leaders, because it allows us to uh, you know, what we call on the team is like no look passes, right? If someone's reliable and consistent, you know, you can just toss a ball without looking and that it's gonna get caught. And that allows you to move faster and execute better. Um, the other aspect that you you brought up is is just honesty and transparency. And and maybe this is unique to your position uh from a consulting lens, right? Because what do you have to lose? Like you're just reading it as you see it, versus teams where there's other dynamics, you know, there there's personal journeys, there's uh there's personal careers at play and egos. And maybe it's a little bit harder uh for us to be honest um within a team setting because there's always a bit of posturing and and and whatnot. And um when I think about it, it's like when you can get to that true honesty, someone that is willing to admit that they stepped in shit, as you say, you know, it's like those are the real moments. That's when the teams really start to gel, when it's like the barriers are dropped, vulnerability to use like an overused term, like has been established, and like that's when you feel like you're a group of adults, when you can just all there for like meeting for a common cause, all knowing that you're trying to get to like an ultimate destination, and like we all recognizing everyone has their flaws, including yourself, right?

AnnaRae Grabstein 36:58

Yeah. Oh my gosh, we all are so flawed. That's actually what makes us unique and not AI. So if there's anything to to carry into this this next chapter, is that our unique flaws can be our superpowers, also. Um, but but I I hear what you're saying. I I think that there is this element too about experience that is really powerful. And I think that you have it as well. So many of us who have been in the working world, be it cannabis or otherwise, for for 10 plus years professionally. Um, you just start to know when something smells fishy. And uh like like I do a a lot of of commercial strategy. And so that means that I've seen a lot of different companies distribution agreements as an example. And so I know what a bunch of them look like. And that experience gives me the ability to when I see a brand new distribution agreement, to just have that like, how much is this normal? Is is this normal or is this outside of of reality? Either this is like too good to be true or this is way too costly, whatever it is. It's like I've got this internal record that is this this ability to create, to have a judgment based on what I'm seeing. That if I had never seen that agreement, uh an agreement like that before, that I wouldn't have had. So, I mean, getting older is can be cool, you know. To to stack up a little bit more knowledge that maybe you don't have. Um, you know, people love to say that there was like no case study for this, that we were all like building the plane as it was flying. And hopefully we can stop saying that because the reality is that like we've been at this a while now. Like there's 40 states with cannabis programs. And yes, we've been building the plane, but um, there's also a lot that we kind of know already about what's come before. And so if we can keep using the knowledge that we've learned, be it in policy, in business, um, in product development, like all in innovation, all those things, like we just we can get better, and they're shortcuts to to skip over the shit that we already have proven doesn't work.

Ben Larson 39:25

Yes, and I think the only thing I've learned is we don't know what the future holds as far as like the space goes, and that the only thing that we rely on is is reliability and honesty. Um, and now I'm feeling a theme developing here. Um, but when I think about you know what keeps us healthy from a like a you know a governance perspective within our company is just ultimate honesty, transparency, and understanding the various levers in our business, the numbers, reporting those transparently to our stakeholders, our board, having open conversations with them, showing true hesitance when they ask for, I mean, not even three-year projections, just like next year projections. Like, you do know, like this could all just go out the window with like a single stroke of a pen, especially this year, right? There's so much at stake. Like schedule three, we didn't see that happening the way it was going to happen. We still won't know until mid-July what's happening with adult use as it relates to schedule three, how it all relates to the hemp program and CMS and all that kind of stuff. So it's like all I know is I don't know exactly what the future looks like, but I know that if we just operation with good operate with good business fundamentals, honesty, reliability, that you know that keeps at least our stakeholders happy. Um, of course.

AnnaRae Grabstein 40:56

Well, so you you have a very engaged board, and um, it's been really cool as I've gotten to know you and Virtosa more to hear how much you turn to your board to talk with them about different things that are going on, and and um, and it sounds like the folks on your board have various levels of of it of engagement before Virtosa, um, inside and outside kind of the industries that you're touching, like beverage and cannabis, things like that. Um but but how would you say that that it has evolved as as you've gone through this shift from like gross, growth, growth towards now needing to recalibrate of getting to this place that you just said of yes, it's inevitable, but you're not really sure when or how. Um in terms of of that evolving relationship with the board, have has things changed?

Ben Larson 41:51

Uh yes and no. Um so two things. One, going back to what you were saying, like earlier in the first segment, talking about um choosing the right capital partners

What Being An Adult Means

Ben Larson 42:05

or choosing the right business or making the right decisions, saying no to the right things. That is incredibly important when it comes to establishing your board, choosing investors. Like you need to realize that when you're bringing on investors and board members, like these are the people that you have to work with, that you get to work with, right? And if you choose right, you'll have employees that are not on the payroll. Like that that's how I thought about it, right? It's like you choose the right investors, they work for you now. Sorry, guys. Um, but yeah, it's you know, it's like so it's been truly a joy. It's like that's been the agreement uh since day one. And also, it's like you're bought into this mission and and we are hellbent on achieving our vision. Um and so whether that takes three years, five years, ten years, like this is what we've all signed up for. Okay, that being the established foundation, the first time we hit a true cycle, I would say this was probably back in 2020. Yeah, go figure the pandemic. Um, it was just a true, honest, like sit down and be like, this is what's happening. Are we all aligned on what needs to happen? And then as the operator, my job is to go execute. And so that is the relationship that I've created with my board. Is like we collectively decide what is right, and I can be rather influential in that conversation if I'm doing my job as a CEO. And then I execute, and then that proves reliability, right? So that the next time it happens, there's trust inherently in the direction that is being gone. And like if you're unreliable, if you don't execute, if you don't take swift action, then that reliability is not going to be there, and you're not gonna have the trust of your board, and it's not gonna be easy. And so, you know, where we're at today now. With like board dynamics or investor dynamics, is like uh there's seasons to people's helpfulness, right? Because, like you said, Anna Ray, like there are people with backgrounds in cannabis, people with backgrounds in CPG, ingredients, uh, alcohol, CPG. Did I say that? Um, probably. Um either way, it's like depending on the season or the need, like we get to draw on their their expertise at different times. And sometimes people take a take a backseat on the bus and and that's totally cool. Um, but their their counsel is always very much appreciated because you know this is this has been a journey, you know. There's no like I we don't have any like new faces like really in the room at this point. Yeah, yet.

AnnaRae Grabstein 44:49

And and when you talk about that trust, like it's part of it is that your board has watched you make hard decisions, uh even in the face of of of this year. You know, I I know that you guys had to do a small reduction in force, or maybe you didn't have to, you chose to. I don't know, you can say put your own words on it. Um but these were hard decisions that that that you made. The board didn't force you to make, you you chose to do it. And and it reinforces that trust, that that kind of adultingness that that you're bringing to the table in some ways.

Ben Larson 45:22

Yeah, I mean, just for clarity around that, you know, it's like I I mentioned at the beginning of the show that there's just been a phenomenal amount of changes, and there's constant recalibration to the foundation of the business and where our focus needs to lie. Um we see this in extreme fashion, like in in tech companies, as they shift their uh resources to AI. Uh, they're still hiring like crazy, but you know, they're they're shifting momentum from one side of the business to the other. And so that uh that was a similar shift that that we faced. You know, I mentioned with hemp, there's just not a lot of outbounding going on for us right now into hemp beverage. And so it's like, all right, we need to maintain our relationships and our customers there, but we want to grow other parts of our business. How do we do that? What operational systems need to grow in order to support that? And that's what the focus is right now for our business. So um, you know, all that told, we're very lucky, very fortunate to have a stable business and create the optionality that um can roll with the punches with this industry because we truly believe in the inevitability not only of the beverage category, but of cannabis as a whole. Like our whole team is a hundred percent dedicated to making sure that we're creating access and ubiquity of the plan, right? Like, and there's a lot of a lot of things that we can do to achieve that, and we just have to make sure we're running a good, you know, profitable business to do so. And so, yeah, um I I lost the the the string on the question.

AnnaRae Grabstein 47:00

Yeah, no, I get it. I I think that when when you talk about running a good business, and and I talked a little bit, I shared kind of how I accidentally became a consultant. I think part of that too was that I didn't have a lot of faith at that time when I was starting Wolfmeyer, which was the end of 2021, that there were good cannabis companies out there. And I didn't want to um connect my trailer to someone else's truck um at that time. I just felt like it was it was it was too risky. And and I see now all these years later, that there are actually good companies that are kind of floating to the top and and it is a different environment because because people have sustained and changed and adjusted. And it's you know, it's actually been a real pleasure to start to have more confidence that I can get to a place of curating the work that I do to get to work with good companies because there's enough out there that I believe are gonna have a long tail. And you talk about your team believing in the industry. Um, I share that. Like there's just all these good examples time and time again. Are there other examples that we see that's like, wow, how is that guy failing forward again? How is that founder that like sent his last company into receivership getting money to go do something else? Like, what is going on? But but like for all of those, there's there's two others that that are that are also winning and deserve to be winning.

Ben Larson 48:32

So well, there's there's just a lot that has happened 2021. I didn't realize like congratulations on that alone. That that's a decent chunk of time.

AnnaRae Grabstein 48:41

Uh kind of crazy, yeah.

Ben Larson 48:43

But the industry has matured a lot over the last five years. That that's five years for us as an industry to have learned what works, what doesn't, what does it take to sustain, and has attracted a lot of uh a lot of talent. And we see this in different ways. We see it as new markets come online and they go through those learning cycles much faster. It's like, oh, that didn't work in that state. Let's not always, but you know, sometimes it's like let's create the sophisticated business off the bet because we know it works versus you know just just doing things the old way, right? Um things have changed a lot.

AnnaRae Grabstein 49:18

And um really have.

unknown 49:21

Yeah.

AnnaRae Grabstein 49:21

Well, so you know, it was almost three years ago, I think, also that we started doing this podcast. Oh wow, which is crazy. Um, I think this is episode 139, and it it was like June or July um that we first did this. So it's not a full three years, but um, did we accidentally become media people? Like what are we doing here?

Ben Larson 49:48

God, I hope not. I'd be a lot better at this if we did. Um, you know, it it's it's it's been a real gift. Uh I mean, obviously, like we've always had great conversations, but being able to use it as a platform to explore our curiosities in the space. Um, you know, we haven't done it to make money. We yeah, I mean, I don't really think of it as marketing, but it has created space where, at least in the very least, in times where I'm not traveling as much, I still feel connected to the space and I'm able to like reach out to people that I'm curious about. But more than anything, um, and I think you you'll agree with this, is it's been a little bit of a hack to to learn how other people are running their businesses and how to run my business better. Um, so thank you everyone for giving me all the tips to run a better business. But um, I don't know. I I I also love I I I haven't attributed to this because like I've been growing in the space alongside it, but it makes the space feel that much smaller, right? Like I feel very connected to the space. I've always felt a sense of ownership over the industry. Um, and I think it only validates that further, where it's just like just a true ownership of all the relationships and all the people operating the space and and trying to get it done and move it forward. Yeah. What I mean, what about you?

AnnaRae Grabstein 51:16

I yeah, I you know, I I resonate with a lot of what you're saying, and I will say that I kind of I will say that I am kind of a media person now. I I'm trying to accept that. I am starting to be better at it than me.

Ben Larson 51:31

You're just you're less distractable, that's for sure.

AnnaRae Grabstein 51:35

Well, yes, that's true. Um, but but I think that it's more about what I really have realized is that there is a hunger for information and real authentic, deep conversation. And I've realized that because of the feedback that we've gotten from people that have benefited from our conversations, and that's made me want to put out more conversations and to make sure that that cannabis news and and

Board Trust Through Hard Decisions

AnnaRae Grabstein 52:04

market dynamics are available to people who want to learn about them because we've seen also over the course of our time in the industry, a lot of different media platforms come and go. And um, I don't have kind of the bandwidth to truly dedicate my whole day to being a journalist, but I realized that through all of these tools that are available to us in our modern day, that we can drop in and be a part of the conversation and add something to it, and that that gives us this sort of public intellectual role within the space that um has been really fun, but also has given us access to all these people that we want to uh have conversations with. So as much as as I didn't set out to become a media person, uh, do I hate the idea that I I make media now? No, I don't. I'm actually kind of into it. It's pretty fun.

Ben Larson 53:04

Yeah. Well, I I I do like how it's been a forcing mechanism for me because as like an early stage founder, you do a lot of doing, right? It's just like you know what you need to do to create, and it it creates your path for you. And as long as you're executing at a good clip in the right direction, you're doing the right thing. But at a certain point, you transition from founder to CEO. And that requires a different lens, right? Hopefully, you're bringing on the right people and you're you're cultivating them to do the right things, um, and to have that bigger lens of the space and and to look at all the different moving pieces. Um, I have appreciated the weekly drop-in to see what's happening in the news, think about how it's affecting businesses and like what are the important conversations that people want to hear about. These are the things that again, I'm reflecting back into my own business as I run it. So it's like a big experiment. Um, a very serious experiment, of course. Uh, but you know, uh very serious. Yeah. Also, I mean, I will say there there's a certain amount of joy that comes to me, like when someone tells me that they've been listening to the shows or they're they're able to point to a certain episode that that resonated with them. And I still have the exact same reaction after 139 episodes. I'm like, wow, people actually listen to this?

AnnaRae Grabstein 54:27

Really? We've actually had some great conversations, and and I think that that you've said that that it it makes you a better leader to get to talk to all these other leaders. And I totally feel the same way. Like folks have dropped some real gems in conversations with us that then I have been able to think about later and be like, wow, that's a really smart perspective. And I wouldn't have gotten that perspective if we weren't here being media people once a week trying to have these conversations and also pushing ourselves constantly to be like, well, what's actually interesting at the moment? What do people care about? So um, yeah, it's it's been a journey, and um, and you're right, like we haven't made money doing this. We had one sponsor one time for like a couple months. We tried it out because we wanted to see what what would it be like and if it would deliver us value or the sponsor. And I'm not sure that it did either, to be honest. But that doesn't mean that that uh that the continued evolution of high spirits um is over. I think that there's there's more for us to keep doing with this platform, and we want to be doing more of these one-on-one episodes where we can go deep with our audience. And sometimes it's honestly it's just more work for us to to make time to do it this way, uh, because we have to think more about what we want to bring to the table as opposed to just getting to ask all the questions. So we'll we'll keep doing it.

Ben Larson 56:00

Well, the the one thing I will say that won't evolve, uh, that I very much appreciate about it is that we name this high spirits because we both are naturally positive people and we feel felt, still feel, that that's what this industry needs. It needs to that kind of persistent positivity, that sense of inevitability. Um, and while it's a lot of work and there's a lot of twists and turns, it's not always like awesome sauce, but like um that there's always a silver lining and there's always the fact that we've chosen to be here and we get to work in this amazing industry with an amazing purpose. And um, yeah, I'm just grateful to be doing it alongside you. So happy to keep everyone's spirits high as we do it.

AnnaRae Grabstein 56:49

I'm I'm totally with you. And I I am optimistic. I I to I really am like and sometimes I wonder if I'm crazy for it, but but I also believe in it. I have moments of kind of feeling in the in the doldrums, like we talked about at the beginning, but um, but it seems like being honest about that is just as important to the commitment to staying high spirits um throughout this journey. Uh as we close out the episode and get closer um to saying goodbye, I'm wondering um if you want to share anything that's given you some hope right now.

Ben Larson 57:27

Oh, things that give me hope. Um honestly, I I'm just incredibly appreciative of building in the space and creating an amazing team and having such an amazing community, be it through the high spirits audience or fans and customers and partners of Vertosa, like truly do love this space and the opportunity to build in it and to be growing my family as like in parallel to it. Like, you know, this has been a crazy journey, and and some people say it's insane to build it, it's insane to build families around it, but like we're doing that thing, and I'm more confident than I have been in the last 10 years that we are on the right path, and it is inevitable. Like, we will get there, we're not there yet. That's the most important thing. Like, we need to keep fighting until I mean deschedule or bust, right? But like, you know, those incremental wins are huge. And in this year, I think we have a uh multiple uh incremental wins. Some might call it a leap forward that we can make, um, but we need to keep the momentum. And so seeing everyone engaged uh around the hemp beverage movement, around hemp in general, um, seeing our our vision of getting our partners and alcohol involved in fighting for it coming true, like these are all great steps forward. Um and yeah, there's a lot to be told this year and the years ahead. So um I'm feeling great right now, despite how I kick things off saying that I was entering the weekend all like, you know, the um not feeling like that right now. Yeah. What what about you? Like, how how are you feeling? What are you what are you optimistic about?

AnnaRae Grabstein 59:22

I am optimistic about just the clarity that so many of my fellow

Accidental Media People And Why It Matters

AnnaRae Grabstein 59:29

cannabis industry peers and myself have in this different way than we used to. Like it feels like we talked about optimism, but it feels like we become a little more realistic at the same time. And there's this there's this healthy confidence and calm peace in that. Like believing that things aren't just going to happen because they should, but they're gonna happen because we do them well and because we're smart and thoughtful about the way that we get there. Um, this like this should be the reality is something that I've kind of stopped believing a long time ago and I've let go of. And I've realized that it's actually just about the work. And if we keep taping taking steps every single day in our businesses, you know, they say to be if you're 1% better every day, then you're 365% better at the end of the year, and um, that's a lot better. And being 1% better every day, it's almost too much to be. So um, but but I am hopeful and optimistic because I know that I'm better every day, and I know that the industry is better every day also, and that there is this cleansing going on, and that there's been a lot of of kind of pain and suffering in the journey, but but with that has has brought

Hope, Momentum, And Listener Reflections

AnnaRae Grabstein 1:00:50

this um this this calm that I feel and um and this ability to to see what's real and what's not. And and I like to live in real rather than fantasy land. Um that that's maybe the adults in me. Uh so yeah.

Ben Larson 1:01:07

Yeah, I I will say uh that the older I get, uh, the more I value people who reduce chaos. And um you are one of those people for me. So thank you.

AnnaRae Grabstein 1:01:19

And thank you for thank you for being an adult. Problem. I don't think I'm gonna be a good one.

Ben Larson 1:01:30

All right.

AnnaRae Grabstein 1:01:31

Yes, let's do it.

Ben Larson 1:01:32

All right, everybody. Thank you. What do you think? What are you optimistic about? What do you appreciate about this industry, about your companies, about us? Feel free to share that. Um, thank you to our teams of Virtosa and Wolfmeyer, and of course our producer, Eric Rossetti. If you've enjoyed this episode, please share, like, review, do all the things. Tell us who you want to have on the show, what you want us to discuss. We're here for you, and we're not stopping anytime soon. Thanks for listening. As always, folks, stay curious, stay informed, and most importantly, keep your spirits high. Until next time, that's the show.