Seeing Is Not Testing

SPEAKER_02 0:00

I talk to people every day that they're like, Yeah, we got this. I can see. I mean, it's really just I think people being a little overly confident that they can see something that's like actually molecular vicious education that's going into that. Either that or the most convincing way to sell people on pathogen testing is that they have lost rooms or facilities and had to start over again and lost hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars. And then they're like, oh yeah, I'm gonna do this forever. And we're trying to help people not have to go through that to say, okay, we can spend a few thousand dollars a month on this to have confidence that we can catch things early.

Hosts, Gardening, And Golf Mindset

Ben Larson 1:06

I'm Ben Larson.

AnnaRae Grabstein 1:08

And I'm Anna Ray Gramstein. And every Tuesday we're trying to have conversations that engage your curiosity and get you thinking more deeply about what really matters in our industry.

Ben Larson 1:17

It is May 19th, 2026, and today's guest is Melanie Nash, CEO of Tumi Genomics. We're going to be diving into all things genetics, the plant, and everything we should all be thinking about. I'm excited to get back into the plant. I know Anna Ray loves plants. Are you growing a plant currently, Anna Ray?

AnnaRae Grabstein 1:36

I plan to grow two cannabis plants in my backyard, which is our usual, um, but I don't have them yet. We've got this problem, which is sort of hilarious, which is that if I plant them too early, they get too big and I end up with too much weed. And uh shame that I don't, it's like too much? What what do I what am I gonna do with that?

Ben Larson 1:57

So uh weed instead of making jams, you're you're making mason jars full of weed and just passing them out around the neighborhood. Totally.

AnnaRae Grabstein 2:05

But the planting that I'm doing now is I have planted um my summer garden of tomatoes and herbs and some squash and replanted some of my beautiful San Pedro cactuses from pots into the ground. So it's definitely kind of a garden vibe in May here in Sonoma County.

Ben Larson 2:23

Oh, I have some San Pedros from a certain someone. I I need to get them out of their pots. They've been in them for a year. Um what's going on in your world? Oh, uh less gardening, but I I'm excited to know that I'm not behind schedule when it comes to spring planting. We we do tend to plant a little something here and there. I'm not as much of a green thumb as you, but um, I did spend some time out on the greens yesterday, uh playing some golf, uh, and took a little bit of a break from my my normal schedule. But you know, it's funny when I'm golfing, I constantly think about what a good mental exercise it is uh as it relates to running a business. Um, you know, just that the constantly being faced with, you know, whether it's unexpected terrain or or conditions. Yesterday it was very windy, um which I don't know. Wind for me is just really interesting. It's like psychologically messes with me, not just the ball. Um, but inevitably in golf, no matter how good you are, you have bad hits and you have to mentally recalibrate and just it can last. You know, sometimes you get in this funk and it's it's just it's hard and and like you have to break free. Um inevitably you do, and you know, you it I don't know, it's just something about it that that makes it seem like really good brain training for for running a business.

AnnaRae Grabstein 3:46

Yeah, sounds like a metaphor for what we're dealing with in in cannabis regularly and certainly right now.

Ben Larson 3:52

Right now, yeah, lots of crosswinds, lots of trying to understand what's around the corner. Um, I'm excited about today in particular, just because like getting back into the roots of of the industry and and focusing on the plant instead of everything that's going on around us. But I know.

AnnaRae Grabstein 4:09

Well, we do have some news queued up to to highlight first. So maybe we jump in, we get the news out of the way, and then we'll we'll start talking about the plant. Sound good?

Ben Larson 4:17

Yeah, I love it.

Policy And Market News Roundup

Ben Larson 4:19

I love it.

AnnaRae Grabstein 4:19

So, story number one is that Georgia has overhauled its medical cannabis program. Um, Governor Brian Kemp signed Senate Bill 220, putting Georgia's Patients First Act into law uh last week, which expands the state's tightly controlled medical cannabis program in a few significant ways. The bill replaces Georgia's old 5% potency cap with a 12,000 milligram THC limit, adding new qualifying conditions, and notably allowing vapes as a delivery method for patients 21 and older, um, which is a first. Previously, there were no inhalable form factors allowed. So the commission has until January to finalize testing and packaging rules, but these new products are expected to hit shelves this summer. And um, it's one to watch because Georgia has long been one of the most restricted medical cannabis markets in the country. And this signals meaningful patient expansion and access in a state that's been slow to move. So we are excited for Georgia and excited for the patients there.

Ben Larson 5:27

Yeah, Georgia is a Georgia is a really interesting market and happening just at the right time, you know, as we talk about rescheduling and the importance of medical cannabis, opening it up. Uh, you know, historically, the physicians um there's just a lot of friction because what was required, and we discussed this on this week in cannabis last week, uh, with Judson uh from Fine Fettle, is that you had to be like at your wit's end, have you know exercise like every other means uh available to you before getting to cannabis. And that just created a lot of uncertainty and and friction with the doctors. And so I think there was something with like 5,000 patients or or or or something very small, 13,000 patients.

AnnaRae Grabstein 6:13

Not a lot, not enough patients for sure.

Ben Larson 6:16

Um, but now that that's gone away, and and basically physicians are free to to recommend it. So it's just going to explode. And also happening in Georgia is that you have this low-dose uh hemp consumables in the in the mainstream retail market. So you have beverages, gummies, that kind of thing. Um, so it's this kind of bifurcated market, and you can also get those products in dispensaries. And so you're you're seeing this interesting uh layer, these two layers that are kind of bridging the lack of an adult use program. And, you know, with all this movement at the federal level, you start to think it's like, oh, is is Georgia creating a model about what the future could look like for cannabinoids?

AnnaRae Grabstein 7:00

Yeah, when we spoke to Justin uh Judson on Friday, I was surprised to realize that hemp products couldn't be sold in the medical dispensaries. And and I think you're right, it is it is a potential future path um in a medical-only market that could bifurcate like high potency products in certain areas, but still creating access in dispensaries to products that maybe can go over state lines theoretically, if we're if we're also lucky. Um we'll see. While we are on the thread of medical, uh, the House voted to let VA doctors recommend medical marijuana to veterans. So important to note this hasn't yet passed through the Senate, but the House of Representatives did vote to let military veterans receive recommendations for medical marijuana through their doctors at the VA. And it was a bipartisan amendment from representatives uh Brian Mast, Dave Joyce, and uh Dina Titus. And if it passes through the Senate, it would prevent the VA from enforcing a long-standing directive that has blocked providers from helping veterans register for state medical cannabis programs. So this feels really notable, um, along with all of the other uh kind of wind behind the back of medical right now that started with Donald Trump and the executive order and is continuing on with Schedule Three and kind of the whole industry grappling with how to both comply and create opportunities within a Schedule III landscape. Medical is is is it's on our lips a lot more than it has been for a long time.

Ben Larson 8:45

Yeah, yeah, this is huge. And in the veterans getting the medicine that they need. We we we know very personally through through a lot of people in in the cannabis network that this has just been a massive void. We we know cannabis is has very uh relevant medical applications, and and finally there's some wind in the sales here. The other interesting aspect here is there's just a lot of change afoot, right? You know, I was I was on a a prep call for for the upcoming Canra stakeholder event, and the biggest question that regulators have is what does the future look like? What do we are what should they be prepared for? And I think it's so interesting to start to understand it's like regulators alongside us as operators are still are all just trying to figure out what's going on, and I think no one knows, you know. Uh, but it's a lot of movement, it's a lot of progress, and and this one aspect is is like it makes you it's one of those things where it's like all the complexity around it doesn't matter as much as how important it is that uh the veterans are are finally getting access to to cannabis.

AnnaRae Grabstein 9:59

Heck yeah, heck yeah. Um cool. Well, on to story number three, our last and final story uh global report on pricing compression and what it means for operators. A new report came out from the Global Cannabis Network Collective and Whitney Economics, introducing price compression as one of the clearest indicators of market maturity. And um, the report draws on data from mature U.S. markets, Canada, and Germany, while also analyzing emerging trends across Europe and Latin America. The core finding is that while new cannabis markets often launch with elevated pricing and strong growth expectations, most eventually face sustained downward pricing pressure as supply expands. Regulations evolve and markets mature. The takeaway for operators seems simple is that if you're planning international expansion or entering a new state, the pricing trajectory is predictable. And the question is whether you're building a business that can survive it. We've been talking about this the whole time we've been recording this podcast. We see pricing um constantly and prices are high when a market launches and they go down, but now we have an actual report um out to prove it.

Ben Larson 11:11

Yeah, the the nice thing about being where we are today, it's almost like we know what the horizon looks like. And so instead of this being pricing compression, it's just driving towards the normal pricing, right? And what it actually is is just a removal of the premiums we're put paying for inefficiency. And so it's like that cycle is happening faster. People are getting smarter with their businesses, the systems are becoming more sophisticated, and instead of repeating the same problems over the over the course of years, it's figuring itself out faster and faster. And a big part of that, and and what I'm excited to talk about today is is is what Tumi Genomics focuses on and fixing that at the root level with with genetics and making sure that the the cultivators are are able to grow efficiently and and not have a ton of loss, right? And so it's like these elements work themselves into every step of the supply chain, and eventually it all gets figured out. And that's why these big sophisticated operators are are kind of are winning in these various markets.

AnnaRae Grabstein 12:19

Yeah. I mean, for years we used to talk about that there was no case study to cannabis and the endless people that I heard say, like, we're building the plane as we're flying it. And uh yes, and I think at this point, there are no case studies that we get to to look at and we understand what what creates uh what creates like a pattern of a market maturing and certainly efficient production is at the core of it. Um so let's um let's cue up and bring on Melanie.

Melanie Nash On Genetics Infrastructure

AnnaRae Grabstein 12:51

Uh today's guest is Melanie Nash. She spent over a decade building operational infrastructure in cannabis, moving from retail to deep genetics work in Oakland as COO at Dark Heart Nursery, where her team first identified hop latent viroid and cannabis, um, and then later serving as COO at Purple City Genetics. And now she's the CEO of TUME Genomics, where she's building scalable testing and intervention infrastructure to help operators manage plant pathogens as a business system, not a crisis response. She brings a rare combination of operations experience, deep scientific credibility, and an operator's instinct. Um and Melanie's also a good friend. So, Melanie, welcome to the show. Happy to have you.

SPEAKER_02 13:37

Thanks so much. I'm so glad to be here. Amazing. And I just want to um say how excited I am about the um what you just mentioned about um veterans access. My husband's in Iraq war vet. Um, so dear to my heart, and I know that a lot of um, you know, his friends you won't use it because of the stigma. And I think that this can also just like help it be more approachable um in as well as legal.

Ben Larson 14:02

Yeah, I was I was talking to Amber Center here in in the Bay Area, and she was explaining that she was having being forced to make a decision, like to continue using cannabis, which she uses for um for lupus every day, um, or quit that and be eligible for a trial surgery. Um, which through the VA. Through the VA, which being forced to make that decision is like, oh, do you want to maintain your quality of life, or do you want to take a chance and and go through the surgery? But you can't have both.

SPEAKER_02 14:41

Yeah, so big spad. That's great.

AnnaRae Grabstein 14:44

Good. Well, okay, let's dive in. Um, genetics. It's where every cannabis product begins before the lights go on, before the nutrient program. Um, and I think that it's a misunderstood part of the cannabis supply chain and of the early phases of cultivation. Melanie, you have spent more time than most people I know working in genetics. I would love it if you could give us a little background about your um, about your career path in genetics, but also about how the genetics kind of space operates right now in cannabis. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 15:23

So um, yeah, I started in cannabis as a dispensary manager um for a year and a half and then came out to um California in 2017. I was a sales operations manager at Dark Heart, like not knowing anything about genetics or plants or anything. It was he was really brought in as operations and sales and you know, leading the team as it was growing. So yeah, I learned a lot over those first couple of years of just like how does a nursery work? Um, you know, it's really like the only part of the supply chain that's like truly uh perishable. You know, anything that you make is gonna die within 10 to 14 days. So kind of forecasting is super important. And you know, as trends change so quickly, you know, you need to ramp up the mother stock, and then suddenly that straight isn't popular anymore. So it's it's a really challenging part of the space. Um, so yeah, dark card was, you know, really one of the largest uh nurseries at the time. Um, and you know, we we sold clones all over the state and um from you know small growers up in Humboldt to you know the really large companies that were coming online. And um, you're really trying to push to be the core supplier, like having Dark Heart be that, you know, we're gonna supply you all of your clones that you need. You don't need to worry about your your own mother stock, use that space for um for flour. You know, when you do the ROI calculation, yeah, that makes sense, but it is really difficult to like line up exactly with people's production plans. And um, so it makes sense that a lot of uh growers in California still have their own nurseries and their own mother stock and then also source clones from from the nurseries. And um, you know, Purple City genetics, I mean, they're at heart a breeder and um are really kind of pushing um the cutting edge of of bringing you know high quality genetics to growers. And I think the difference is you know, kind of paying attention to the consumer trends and also thinking about the agronomic traits that are gonna make something you know productive. I say, you know, hourly employee proof, you know, what are the things that are gonna bring the yield, the THC, be easy to grow, um, that I think a lot of other breeders don't necessarily focus on. It's just on the hype and making it purple enough and making you know it 45% and everything that people are looking for. But that's not always uh what's gonna make a cultivator successful. There's a lot of other traits there. Um at Purple City, um, we did, you know, since uh we sold seeds, um, we also got into you know working with other markets and and international, um, you know, really with the you know 2018 Farm Bill. And so that was really interesting because in most other markets outside of California, there's not the nursery infrastructure. Um, that was like kind of unique to California. You know, in the early 2000s, there was you know, kind of the specialty like cookie strains, and you know, they kind of identified a niche that you know people are gonna want to you know source genetics from you know a quality operator, whereas you know, in the newer markets, um, it's really either like basically ignored, um, and and they say, Oh, it's immaculate conception, figure it out, or you're required to start from seed and you have to phenohunt and um just not really, you know, the regulations aren't setting up something that's like should be a very important part of an agricultural supply chain, um, and is in every other agricultural supply chain, um, that there's you know universities or nurseries that are like holding genetics and making sure that they're clean and there's you know chain of pussy and everything, and that just has been ignored um in in cannabis. So, you know, that was something that we worked on is like helping growers you know source good genetics and stay ahead. I mean, obviously it's a big part of differentiating um, you know, for for companies and having you know something that's new and special or works within their environment. And um, so I got a lot of exposure, you know, in those other markets where there's not the nursery infrastructure that there is in California.

Ben Larson 19:26

I'm before we dive into the nuts and bolts around everything, one of the narratives I've been hearing about all this, all this change we've been seeing at the federal level is a potential, you know, secondary uh implication of this new hemp language and how like it might complicate it the transfer of seeds and genetics from across state lines. Is this something that you're tracking or has this been debunked? Because I haven't heard it very loudly, but there have been a few people where it's just like the the problematic federal language that you know is being written in in these voids might have like downstream effects that that are very much challenged the the movement of genetics across state lines.

SPEAKER_02 20:13

Yeah. I'm not following it as closely as I used to, because now we're focused on pathogens, but I have um you've seen a lot of concerns, particularly from the seed companies. I mean, a lot of them have just you know e-commerce sites set up, and it's a big part of their business that it could be totally shut down. But you know, and then at the same time, I I think it will also continue to operate the way it always has. I mean, it's like a pretty easy thing to move around.

Ben Larson 20:39

Yeah, this immaculate conception. So it comes back.

SPEAKER_02 20:43

The genetics still need to come come from somewhere.

Breeder Credit And Moving Past THC

AnnaRae Grabstein 20:45

So well, so genetics coming from somewhere, I it it also brings up the the trust problem that people have with genetics in terms of strains being renamed and um not knowing the lineage of where things are, and and even the the debates around indica sativa hybrid and what really matters. How how much do you think that that stuff really matters? How much is it important to you um in the way that you are approaching the way you perceive genetics?

SPEAKER_02 21:20

Yeah, I I think that well, I mean, number one, everything's a hybrid. Let's just admit just call them what they are. Um the you know, no one's growing a real sativa that is, you know, 14 weeks and so everything everything's a hybrid. And well, I do think that there's a big miss and and loss right now in terms of the work that the breeders are doing. Um, yeah, that I mean, I get it that it's like really tough to be a cultivator and you need to sell what you grow. And so if it helps to to rename, that's what they do. But it's really, you know, underserving the work that the breeders are doing. And and I think that that's A disservice to the industry as a whole because if the breeders can't be recognized and we can't compensate them properly, we're going to lose them. And then what will that leave us with? Just, you know, Philip Morris doing breeding for us in the future, one of the things legal. Like I think we want to, you know, as an industry, work to preserve the work that they're doing because it is an art and a science. And they're the ones that have like the deep libraries and things that we can still hunt through to look for minor cannabinoid, look for other characteristics. And um, and right now they're just, you know, it's it's all kind of underground. And sometimes you're doing deals with a breeder, sometimes they're doing licensing deals with nurseries, but um, there's just really, you know, not a lot that you can, you know, go on to verify. So um, yeah, I think working directly with the breeders that you like and and verifying with your nursery, um, you know, are you you know do you have a royalty deal, or did you just you know buy this at a show and then and propagated it and you're not actually compensating the breeder? I think those are important questions that you know are kind of like fundamental to you know preserving the you know what's important about uh this industry.

Ben Larson 23:12

Focusing a lot on genetics and and like you you bring bring up minor cannabinoids and and for a long time, you know, those those of us in the industry that you know appreciate the dynamic of the plant and and the different genetics and what they lead to, like what do you envision the future to be like working away from this really high THC percentage? Like how do we how do we bring back that that focus and uh respect for these these complex strains?

SPEAKER_02 23:44

Well, I think there just has to be a lot more research um to demonstrate what um things are gonna do for people and what products are gonna work. I mean, it's it's still so trial and error and um you know, and that and yeah, as things become more open and legal, you know, more universities can look at it. There's just gonna be more people that can can check it out and see, you know, how it will help. And I think that I mean, there's always gonna be you know, the high THC um, you know, driving it, but I think the you know more normalized it gets, the more consumers there are. They're gonna demand different things. I mean, I I'm a low-dose person, you know, I I don't have drinks more than two milligrams. I have like two puffs, and I get like excited if I have something that's 10% and maybe has some other um you know minor cannabinoids that you know I can actually like smoke a whole joint and not be like going to sleep immediately. So it there's there's definitely people out there, and and I think that it's just a matter of it opening up and doing the research.

Ben Larson 24:44

Yeah, kind of kind of reminds me of the the the low alc low alcohol movement right now and and you know beers, beers being released purposefully uh with less less alcohol versus being restricted to it. Um yeah, maybe as humans we just like what what what we can't have.

The Big Three Cannabis Pathogens

AnnaRae Grabstein 25:05

Well, so we we kind of set the stage, talked about genetics, and um, and in the in the beginning, we were talking about price compression across markets. And and one of the things that that happens as markets mature in cannabis is that um every single part of the supply chain, which really starts with genetics and cultivation, needs to focus on efficiency. And um, now you've moved from genetics to leading a science and pathogen company to me. And um, you guys are focused specifically on cultivation and what's happening there in terms of these pathogens that are showing up um in the plants that are hurting the output, hurting the yields. Um, and I'm not sure that people really understand how widespread pathogens are in the cannabis supply chain. And so I think that that's where we should start is if you could help us to understand kind of what are the major pathogens in the plant and how widespread are they.

SPEAKER_02 26:07

So the main pathogen that um I think gets the most attention is um hop latent viroid. Um, and that has been around probably 15 or 20 years. You kind of started on the West Coast and was identified um in 2019 as you know, HLBD is the causative agent. And um it's pretty devastating to cannabis plants. Um it can kind of live um, you know, latently as it's in the name, and then you pop up and cause um massive losses of yield and potency. And um, it is just like a naked RNA. There's no like protein code around it. So that means that like a lot of sterilizers don't work like quads or alcohol. Like bleach is the only thing that you can use to sterilize, and it's uh super important that a lot of people don't know. Um and it's spread pretty easily, like through tools, water, seeds, um, hands, clothing. Uh so you know, really strict um sanitation protocols are really important for hopladen viroid. Umsarium, maybe even worse than hopladen viroid. I mean, this is a true fungus, it's literally everywhere. Um, air, soil, media, shoes. Um, and it's you know, there's like over 400 strains, um, but there are actually um 21 that have been identified in cannabis and only nine that um are you know cause symptoms in cannabis. And um, yeah, they're they're just it's just a super stable the organ, you know, the spores can live in 10 year for 10 years, and you know, kind of you could be as sterile as you want, but it, you know, as soon as something sporulates, it'll come out. And what's interesting about fusarium is that it just doesn't show symptoms in veg. So nurseries don't really notice it. And um it really kind of pops up when you flipped a flower when the you know the plant's kind of stressed out at that point. And so it's super important to make sure that the um plants that you're sourcing um don't have fusarium. It's really hard to get rid of once once you have an afacility. Um scythium is the third one that um is a problem. It's not quite as devastating as the other two, but um it's it's not actually a fungus, it's it's closer to an algae, and um, water is the main vector for it. Um and so you know it's it's important to test the water regularly. And I mean, they're these pathogens are um ubiquitous. I mean, it's you know, we've tested over 2,000 facilities in the last four years, and um, over 82% have tested positive um for hoplating viroid. Um it's regular, you know, each year um fusarium and pithium are around 35 to 40 percent of facilities that we test. Um, and so it's it's a huge problem. And uh, you know, when we'll talk more about what what to do about it and what what it's costing you.

Yield Loss Math And Blind Spots

Ben Larson 29:00

Yeah, uh it's hard to kind of wrap your head, like those are very large numbers. I think you said like 82% or or something like that. So what does that actually mean? What's the downstream effects of that if you if you're finding in a facility? Is it is it getting onto the plants and then rendering the plants unusable? Or like as a non-grower here, I I need it broken down just a little bit more. Like what are the the downstream impacts of uh of these pathogens being um existing in a facility?

SPEAKER_02 29:29

Definitely. So for haplane viroid, um, the the downstream impacts is that it's going to be yield loss and potency reduction. And on the straight averages are uh that of the um 82% that have tested positive, 22% of the plants are are positive. And and that causes a 40% yield loss. So the the basics of that is that it's it's basically like one in 10 pounds that you're producing is just out the out the door. Um if if you don't know that you have it. And um it's it can be kind of subtle. Um, a lot of growers kind of think that they can see the symptoms and they call it out themselves. But uh yeah, what we've seen is that it's really only the the uh cultivators that test on a regular basis that see meaningful reductions um in that versus uh the ones that just kind of come in sporadically, they stay around that um 20 to 25 percent um infection rate. So hoblane viroid, if you're not paying attention to it, you're probably just throwing out you know one of every 10 pounds that you're producing. Um for feesarium, um, that is really more um devastating that like if you just if if there's an infection and it starts to sporolate, it can knock out whole rooms and whole greenhouses. And and then you're having to you know kill everything, sanitize, you're probably gonna lose a couple of runs. Um, and this can come in, we we've seen it um pretty commonly coming in from um media. And so, you know, testing you know, your inputs, um your water, your media um on a regular basis is really important to make sure that you're not it's not just the plants that you're bringing in. That's what a lot of people you know blame, you know, the clones, but there's all the other things that you're bringing in that, you know, there's claims, but you still need to verify um who your vendors are that you're working with.

AnnaRae Grabstein 31:26

So you just dropped some pretty big numbers, and I want to contextualize them a little bit in that like we often talk about earnings reports and MSOs who often will have wholesale businesses that are larger than $100 million of just wholesale flour sales from a particular business. And if you're saying that they could be losing 10%, you know, on a hundred million dollar wholesale business, that could mean that you're losing $10 million a year because you have hop in your grow rooms. Um not to mention if you have Fusarium or these other types of um of pathogens. And and yet we also know that cultivation is the most expensive part of the supply chain to build out. And as all these different states have come online, companies are building these enormously expensive cultivation assets. And so I figure that people must be doing like pretty intense intervention to try to stop this stuff. Um, but from getting to know you, I've been surprised to learn how many groups have yet to kind of take that step to start doing um preventative work and testing. I mean, what from your perspective, like what how much of the industry is doing what it should be doing to get in front of these devastating effects of of what could be happening in their cultivation operations?

SPEAKER_02 32:50

Definitely not enough. I mean, I actually you know say to the team, like, you know, sure there's competitors, but our biggest competitor is not testing. And and it's really about educating people about how important this is. And you know, we've seen, I mean, number one, it is kind of surprising, um, right? Like in in every other agricultural product, this is treated as a line item in your PL under our, you know, certain regulations for it from the USDA. And so a lot of times we see that um people that come from you know other other ag you know understand this pretty well and are you know fine spending a little money on preventative testing. Um, but there's just something about you know the the legacy cannabis operators that a lot of times it's they're like, yeah, I can see it, or you know, you know, I got this, or they're like digging into some nutrient issue or some other thing without ruling this out. Um, and a lot of times this is what it is. You know, they come to us after they have you know checked everything else and they're like, oh, we can't figure it out, and then come to us and realize what it is, and then we can jump in and start helping them, you know, figure out where it's coming from and how to mitigate it and what the things they should put in place. And you know, there are um you know several you know smart operators that have done that ROI calculation and they can see, you know, that you know, even at low-level infections, it's much cheaper to you know do the preventative testing, call things out, you know, catch things early. Um, and and we see that on a regular basis that people that um do that preventative testing, you know, it pops up. You know, fusarium pops up, populate environment pops up, even when you think you have everything in place. And so that preventative testing um really saves a lot um downstream, but it's um a small percentage of the market, especially um with some of the large companies, they're kind of the hardest to you know get in front of. There's so many decision makers, and there's people that are like, yeah, the you know, I'm not worried about that. And it's it's a huge problem.

Ben Larson 34:48

Yes, that was actually one of my questions was like, how prevalent is this in in other agricultural spaces? But it sounds like it is, they've just solved for it and it becomes a part of the standard process of of testing and making sure you're not wiping out entire crops. Um again, being kind of a noob to all this, it's you know, I when I think pathogens, I think things like external to the plant, you know, you you mentioned spores and in and fungi and and whatnot.

Prevention Tools That Actually Work

Ben Larson 35:18

Um but can you talk a little bit about the systemic nature of of some of these pathogens and and how they might be like what's the mechanism by which they get carried on to like the latter uh latter generations of the plant?

SPEAKER_02 35:32

I mean, I'll explain this in the best way I understand because I'm also a scientist. A science officer could you know explain this perfectly with some amazing uh metaphor, but um with hoplane byroid, it is like a really teeny tiny like piece of RNA um that you know typically um gets introduced by the tools when you're um you know pruning the plants or cutting clones. And I mean actually hoplane myroid can survive like up to six months on dried flower. So all it takes is one of your employees rolling a joint and not washing their hands and like coming in and like deleafing and touching a wound. It can be introduced pretty easily. Um yeah, once it's in there, it's like this um super small um piece of RNA. It kind of like travels as the plant's growing, but will always go down to the roots. So the roots are the best place to test for it to have the most reliable. Um and it's you can be in one branch and not the other. So a lot of people have struggled that they're like doing comparative testing and they're you know trying to figure out what's going on. And it the fact is that you had like if you are going to compare, you need to like basically take the same exact piece of tissue and put it in in two different um and send them off to whatever lab you're using if you want like a good comparison, uh, because it can you know be in one leaf and not another leaf. Um and then fusarium, um, you know, that's a root pathogen. I mean, primarily, I mean it again, there's many different kinds, um, but mostly for cannabis will um kind of be in the soil and expand in the roots, and then and then once it gets stressed out, it like grows up in the plants and and cause basically causes them to die.

SPEAKER_01 37:12

Yeah.

AnnaRae Grabstein 37:13

Well, so for years I've been meeting people with nurseries who will say that that tissue culture cleans genetics and that that is why people should be getting tissue culture clones, because if if some strain had hop, the tissue culture clone will deliver something um that no longer has hop but has the original genetics. And and you've told me that that's a myth. So can you break down the difference between tissue culture and and what's happening there that can um that could potentially clean the genetics or not, and why people have been saying that for so long?

SPEAKER_02 37:55

So tissue culture, um you know, at its base, I mean, it is great for like storing genetics. You can like take a little piece and put it in a gar in a little, you know, cup and like store it for a long time. Just doing that, um, you know, just taking a nodal piece is is just like cloning. You know, so whatever is in that piece is like still there. There's nothing about like doing that tissue culture process that's cleaning anything. Uh, so that's just first and foremost, like just people saying I have tissue culture plants is is actually meaningless. You have to like talk to the uh tissue culture provider and find out what they're doing. And if it's nodal tissue culture, it's it's just like mini cloning. Um, apical meristem tissue culture is a process where they're actually like under a microscope, like dissecting the very like tippy top of the new growth on the plant. Um, and that is um, you know, it will clean fungal pathogens um very reliably and can clean hoplaton viroid. Um I mean, it it really is very strain specific. Um, and it still needs to be tested when it comes out because it's only a success rate of around like 30 to 50 percent. So, you know, say you you take 10 of those, you know, little apical meristems, you know, you know, only half of them might be clean from hoplaton byroid. Um if the um tissue culture company is uh you know starting all their genetics um that way, um, and then moving to just kind of you know reproducing the tissue culture plants, they likely will be more clean than just um regular cloning. Uh, but it is a longer process, it's more expensive. Um, so it's important to um identify like what type of tissue culture they're doing, and then still test the plants when they come out.

Ben Larson 39:46

So starting fresh, if I were to like launch a new grow, what would be like the recommended practice for you know running a clean as possible process or at least catching things early and preventing some like catastrophic event downstream?

SPEAKER_02 40:06

So I would recommend, I mean, you know, figure out what your genetic strategy is going to be. And and I would say, you know, don't be a breeder yourself, you know, focus on what you do well and and go and source you know plants from the the breeder that you want to work with, but then make sure even if you trust them that you quarantine them properly, you need to um test those plants two to three times a couple of weeks apart um for you know all those major pathogens um before introducing them to you know your your new space. Um and you know, and then if you know having you know good protocols in place in terms of you know just you know people you and I'm not an expert in all the different things of you know, air shower or the foot baths and all that stuff, you know, consult with someone who wants to help you with that. But you know, have things in place that you're just preventing your stuff from blowing in from the outside. Um, make sure that you have a team that really understands um the SOPs and um sanitation protocols with like bleaching, bleaching tools. Um, you know, if you're gonna have kind of the Eve mother stock that you know is protected from everything else, so you can kind of save your plants. That's a great idea and just keep your you know, your top employees um handling those plants. Um, those are some of the things that I would recommend. But you know, strict quarantine and proper testing and then ongoing testing of your mother plants is is a great way to prevent things from you know happening that could explode and also be able to rule that out um immediately. If there are you know reductions in yield, you can say, well, I've been testing, it's not this, so we can check out these other avenues.

AnnaRae Grabstein 41:49

You you brought up uh pheno hunting and and breeding. There is definitely a movement when I've been in other states that don't have access to lots of nurseries, that you go into a cultivation and operation, and there's often like a pheno hunting room going on, and people are trying to hunt for the next, the next big strain. And I'm always surprised when I'll ask people like, well, how often are you getting a winter? And how often are you finding something that you love? And and um most recently someone was like, Oh, you know, I found this bud that I thought was going to be so beautiful, so amazing, and then we tested it, it was super low potency, so we can't commercialize it. And it just occurs to me that there is this um, there's this real huge amount of effort going in to trying to find the next best strain. But then I don't always see that same amount of effort going in to just keep the plants healthy and identifying the problems that the plants might have inside the grow operation. Like to see a place that's doing pheno hunting but isn't doing preventative pathogen testing. I'm like, what's going on here? This seems like a strange prioritization of energy and resources. What's your take on that? Like, what's driving that type of behavior?

SPEAKER_02 43:02

I mean, people like phenohunting, it's fun. So there's usually someone that's like driving.

SPEAKER_01 43:08

Testing's not fun.

SPEAKER_02 43:10

Can I please just like have this little room over here to have fun? And and I mean, I get it, it is a way to um you know try to be unique and have something else that the rest of the market doesn't have, but it's super time consuming. And I think the other thing that people ignore about phenominting is that really you also need to be doing you know several like production trials once you have identified something that could be production ready to make sure it's gonna perform well in your you know production facility. And so it just, I mean, you're talking about 12 to 18 months if you're you're gonna do that properly. And I don't know what cultivator actually you know has the time or money to do that. So, I mean, I am not a big proponent of pheno hunting. I think that you let the breeders do their good work and then you source from them and and build a relationship with them and. Um, you know, have a good trial program in place so that you can be cycling things through and release new things and you kind of have that also be a f a line on your PL rather than the costs of just doing it yourself and you know hoping for the best. And um, and then yeah, I mean, I I'm not sure what I mean, you know, I talk to people every day that they're like, yeah, we got this. I can see, I mean, it's really just I think people being a little overly confident that they can see something that's like actually molecular. Um, you know, there's just education that's going into that. And and then um either that or you know, we the most convincing way to sell people on um, you know, pathogen testing is that they have lost you know rooms or facilities and had to start over again and lost, you know, hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars. And then they're like, oh yeah, I'm gonna do this forever. And and we're trying to help people not have to go through that to say, okay, we can spend a few thousand dollars a month on this to you have confidence that we can catch things early.

How To Trust Pathogen Test Results

Ben Larson 45:05

I've taken into the the geekier, less fun realm. Um, you know, one of the things that we've become all too uh familiar with in the industry is like in these kind of more nascent parts of the industry, like the consistency and reliability of of testing um can be a little questionable, right? Uh it I mean, even still today, we deal with this on the potency side and and trying to get labs to to create standards from one lab to the next. What is the current state of testing when it comes to pathogens? Is that is that something that has normalized yet, or is it something that that you're still working on uh getting consistency from lab to lab?

SPEAKER_02 45:49

Yeah, definitely still working on consistency. This is something I've learned quite a bit about um, you know, in this in this role. I mean, as a nursery operator, um, it was super frustrating. You know, we didn't know, you know, if anything was accurate that we were doing at dark heart. You know, we did our own testing in-house and like felt confidence about that, but um, Purple City, um, you know, he was so frustrated by it that he you worked with a scientist to develop his own test. And then I helped commercialize it. And so um, you know, that there's people going to like great lengths to try to like feel confident in their testing. Yeah, and that was one of the things that really drew me to Tumi Genomics was um kind of the scientific integrity of the founders and um and the extensive validation that they go through for all bases that are created. And when we kind of advise customers, like, okay, if you are going to shop around, like ask for the validation documents from you know the these other labs, like they can't produce them. So um, you know, there's you know, just some basic things that you want to make sure, like that there's an internal control so you can tell the difference from a negative test to a test that just didn't work at all. Um, you know, what is the you know process for you know collection and maintaining the integrity of the sample so that it isn't like being degraded on a tarmac in a FedEx plane? Um, you know, there's things that they should be able to speak to that um are gonna help you like feel confident in the test. Um, and then also it can go to you know what they're advising and where you're taking the sample from. Like if you're testing for fusarium and told to take a leaf sample, that shows that they have no idea, you know, what you know the how the um pathogen you know spreads in the in the plant. And you know, or they're maybe selling you 30 different um pathogens and bragging about like how many pathogens they're testing for, where most of them are not going to cause any economic damage. And so they're just you know taking your money. So, you know, having to you know really kind of vet um labs is super important, and there's there's no one regulating. So um everyone can just do whatever they want and charge whatever they want. And so, you know, we we do um take a lot of time to document everything um that you know that we've built and then also keep it up to date. I mean, we've identified additional fusarium strains that are impactful to cannabis that weren't known before and have updated our assays for that and updated the validation documents, and uh so it's it's really you know amazing to work with the scientists um at Tumi because of how seriously they take all that. And you know, that the whole point of it is to help the growers be successful, um, not just you know sell as many tests as possible.

AnnaRae Grabstein 48:41

What's what's interesting is um for people that have been listening a long time, you know, I have background in testing lab myself and uh but more on the potency side and um early before COA testing was required, but that type of testing and uh and I I see that this Oh I can't hear you, Anna.

Ben Larson 49:05

We lost your audio. No, not yet. Um all right, I'm gonna jump in just out of the interest of time.

CEO Lessons, AI, And Closing

Ben Larson 49:14

Um Melanie, you you've spent much of your career as an operator and supporting teams and picking up all this knowledge, and and now you're in the CEO seat, and uh that is inherently different than obviously being COO in other roles. And I'm I'm curious as a as a CEO in Anna too, um, you know, how has that journey been for you and and what is this new role, you know, requiring of you that maybe previous roles hadn't?

SPEAKER_02 49:46

Yeah, um I mean I'd say like you know, I've been in the position about a year and a half, and it it did take me a while to adjust from like getting stuff done mode that I've like kind of always been in to like making space for myself to think and read and kind of just strategize. And I mean, I it was maybe like surprising how long that took me to adjust to. Um, but you know, after like 20 years of just like I'm gonna work through the to-do list and you know, make sure everybody's taken care of, like that that was an adjustment that um now I'm I'm kind of like really happy to be in that space and creating that time for myself to think and feel like we're we're more successful as a result of that. Um, and then also I mean, just really being able to um you spend a lot of time on the team. I mean, I think that's my most important job is you know, making the conditions right for the team to thrive and and do what they do best. And um, you know, there's just all different personalities and skills and you know things going on. We've also doubled our our headcount in the last year. Um, so that you know, we have to be really thoughtful about that. Um, and we we you know have you know some good like infrastructure in place. Like we do use the EOS um system. And so we have our kind of weekly, monthly, quarterly, annual cadences and um, you know, quarterly rocks and making sure there's alignment on you know the priorities. And um, so yeah, I mean, that's been I mean, I I feel like an area that I really love is you know, you know, creating that infrastructure and then also kind of adjusting as needed and working directly with the people to make sure that they have what they need.

Ben Larson 51:34

So that's that's funny. We had Boston Dickerson on uh a few episodes ago and he talked about EOS. Is it is that something that you brought along uh or was it was it already operating within the company? And like how how did you all choose to to center around around that as a as an operating system?

SPEAKER_02 51:54

Yeah, they actually did have it. Um from um they had um done an accelerator um through CU and um and had a a CEO before that that brought that to them. And so um that was great that they already you know had that in place and were kind of used to some of those things. And when I arrived, there's you know, kind of a couple of the um things in place, and then we've worked on like adding more um of the layers onto it. It's like a whole system that is all intertwined. So I think it's important to do as much of it as possible. And uh, but they you were kind of already used to um a lot of that cadence when I arrived.

Ben Larson 52:31

Yeah. Yeah, you you were my audio.

SPEAKER_02 52:33

Am I back?

Ben Larson 52:34

Oh, you're you're coming back. Yeah, go ahead.

AnnaRae Grabstein 52:36

Okay, good. I wanted to follow up on that EOS question and and also ask about um about data and AI, because I think that one of the things that all CEOs are thinking about these days is how to integrate AI thoughtfully into their company. And I'm curious kind of how you're thinking about that. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 52:56

I mean, first of all, data um is a really big component of what we're doing um because we're gathering um, you know, just all this information about you know pathogens around the world and and thinking about you know how we can use that and use AI to create really like tailored recommendations and solutions for for our future customers. Um so you know, we have a whole department that um focuses on that. And then of course we're we're bringing AI into it. Um we have a whole, you know, you have several champions in the company um are you this quarter actually, you know, have one of the rocks of um you know, focusing on um actually some some sales functions um and really helping our sales team be more efficient um using um AI skills, and we brought in a consultant for that. So um it's something we're taking really seriously, and but also kind of checking ourselves along the way of like making sure that there's still alignment with our values, that we're still gonna preserve like our customer experience, which um is is really important to us. And I mean, it just is all happening so fast. Like I'd say that that's like a good like 30% of my time is like thinking, researching, trialing. Um, you know, I mean, it's such a game changer and you know, so complex uh that um yeah, but but we're we're excited about you know what it can do to help us.

Ben Larson 54:18

Yeah. What I you were talking about that building that muscle of creating space for yourself to just think and strategize. And, you know, the the couple core pieces that I want to highlight that you said one is uh basically removing friction within the team, like that being a core part of your job and and letting people shine and and and do good focused work. And then also structure, like leaning on a structure like EOS, you know, through structure comes more freedom of thought, right? It's like because if you don't have to think about how it's running, um, then it frees you up to have that time. So um, you know, I I I I love that you pointed out the those things because I've been trying to do that for myself and getting out of that just to do like running through the checklist. Um, you know, it's such an easy crutch to fall back onto.

SPEAKER_01 55:09

Sure. Yeah.

AnnaRae Grabstein 55:13

Well, amazing. I think we're getting towards the end here. So it is time for our last call. So, Melanie, um, what would be what is your final message for our listeners? Advice, call to action, closing thought.

SPEAKER_02 55:27

Um, I yeah, I just really encourage um, you know, any leader that you know has cultivation in their business to um, you know, think about you know that the pathogens are everywhere in in the world and that it's it's something that uh that you really can't ignore. But you know, there are there are solutions and you know, 2Me Genomics is you know a great partner um that can help you make it you know really affordable and approachable to make sure that that's something that's like handled carefully in your in your cultivation.

Ben Larson 56:01

Amazing. Well, Melanie Nash of To Me Genomics, thank you so much for spending the last hour with us. Very deep dive into a part of the plant uh that I don't often think about, especially me being more on the the tail end of the supply chain. Um, but yeah, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 56:18

Yeah, thank you. This was great.

Ben Larson 56:21

All right, we'll talk to you soon. Anna Ray, I feel like you have like a whole bunch of new levers to think about when you're going through people's business plans and efficiency building and all that kind of stuff.

AnnaRae Grabstein 56:32

I know. First question are you doing pathogen testing? Apparently, it needs to be asked.

Ben Larson 56:39

Yeah. Man, well, what did you think, folks? Are are you going back through your business plans and thinking about the pathogen testing? I hope so. As if you're growing plants. Um, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for liking and subscribing and sharing and doing all the things. Please let us know what you think. Let us know who we should have on the show, what we should be talking about in this great year of change in the cannabis industry. Thank you to our teams at Virtosa and Wolfmeyer, and of course, our producer Eric Rossetti. As always, folks, stay curious, stay informed, and keep your spirits high. Until next time, that's the show.