Choosing Cannabis Without Shame

SPEAKER_00 0:00

You can use cannabis and dabble in classical psychedelics if you choose. And that's your choice. And that doesn't mean I'm going to end up in rehab. It doesn't mean that my life is any worse. On the contrary, my life is far better. I'm far more productive when I'm able to practice and drop into those flows of data. The amount of work I can get done in a day when it comes to building process and procedure and dialing into systems that help scale and grow a company is because I love sex and drugs. And I think that if we don't lead by example and start putting it out there that maybe alcohol and our SSRIs and our dependence on pharmaceutical drugs wasn't the answer, but that we need more of us saying that there's another way forward.

AnnaRae Grabstein 1:24

And I'm Anna Ray Grabstein.

Ben Larson 1:26

And we're recording Tuesday, March 24th, 2026. We have a great show for you today. We have Tanya Griffin on. We're going to be talking about everything Illinois retail, social equity, sexual wellness. All right. Yeah, it's going to be a good conversation. Uh, but before we get there, Anna Ray, how is uh Hall of Flowers?

AnnaRae Grabstein 1:48

It was so good. I had such a great time. California is kind of like peak lovely right now. And uh driving down the 101 and then highway one to just arrive in this beautiful beach town full of palm trees and people that were just so excited um to share their passion, what they were doing. I thought that there was a great turnout. Um, not a ton of the biggest brands were there, but the brands that were there, I think had really good engagement by retailers that showed up. People were placing orders. There was just a lot of positivity. And overall, I left feeling like California is back. Uh absolutely. Yeah, it was really good.

Ben Larson 2:33

Back. Oh, well, that's great. That's uh good to hear because as we jump into some of the news, uh California continues to try to give us pressure.

AnnaRae Grabstein 2:43

You know, it's it's an endless struggle. Um, that is the reality of can of cannabis. But but the signals are there. Like there are people that are working really hard, they're doing amazing work, there's consumers that are showing up to buy products, the same product again and again. They love brands. And I don't know. I think that there's just there's a lot of different signals that are telling us different things, but uh holl flowers felt like an indicator of a good year for for the state. So I'm I'm gonna hold on to that for today at least.

Convenience Stores And THC Access

Ben Larson 3:17

That's great. Uh on the other side of persistent challenges, I'm sitting in Chicago at a convenience store show of the Cannabis Forum, CSP, uh, and talking about everything, just like how the THC category has really impacted convenience stores, the landscape there, and the big fight on our hands at the federal level. But not just that, the the kind of persistent and fragmented fights at the state level as well. Alabama was a great example where last year hemp regulations came rolling out. Convenience store lobby wasn't really in the room, and they were one of the ones that got cut off as just like a major chunk of how to like refine how many, just how many places these THC products were showing up in in Alabama. And if you're not watching Alabama, yes, you can go get THC in Alabama, just don't call it medical marijuana or legal cannabis.

AnnaRae Grabstein 4:15

Well, so tell talk to me about the convenience stores versus the retailers versus all these different categories of retail and how they separate or see themselves differently or lobby differently. How are you seeing that showing up?

Ben Larson 4:32

Yeah, it's it's it's a good question. Uh, it's something that I've been learning uh over the last couple years. But to your point earlier, you know, there are the liquor store, there's the liquor store contingent, and liquor stores have their own narrative. You know, they only sell adult beverages, they carve just about anyone that walks through that door. And so they are perceived as having a higher level of of age gating, right? And now kind of like like broader beyond that is grocery and then convenience store. Grocery is obvious, like major grocery stores. Uh, this I think does include the superstores like Target and Walmart, where they have grocery and then like clothing as well. Um, those that's like kind of one group in itself, and then there's the convenience stores, which are you know the circle K's and set of 11s, but by and large, a lot of like single operators. Like think of it as like a single location dispensary owner, right? And that's interesting because there's over a hundred thousand of them around the US, and it's actually one of the biggest lobbies in the US. And so it's this interesting dynamic where they have a very loud voice, they they represent a lot of constituents. Um, but when you're talking to regulators, you know, it's like sometimes when you have something like a big category like that, it's easy for the regulators to be like, oh, well, let's exclude them. And that takes, you know, the number of access points from 3,500 down to a thousand. And, you know, that's not great for industry, but it's great for the regulators who want to keep it in a box. Um, so it's it's a challenging conversation.

AnnaRae Grabstein 6:11

Isn't it true that the convenience store um association created their own age gating or age verification tool that's now deployed across?

Ben Larson 6:23

Yeah, yeah. It's it's it's a program called TrueAge. Um, you know, there's a lot of operators in space that get to use it for free, and it's it's just it's a a self-built, um, you know, pretty full foolproof like software. And you know, the big talking point here is they check more people daily than TSA. And so it's something that is very broad and highly effective. And you know, through some pretty straightforward regulations, you could just mandate the use of true age when it comes to these products, and you would have pretty tight controls, controls on everything. So um, you know, I think it's really important for these different groups, whether they want to support it or not, to be very much engaged in the conversation so they can know the pain points of the legislators, the regulators, the operators, and know how to kind of navigate those conversations. Because what I can tell by talking to singular operators, um, sometimes representing you know 1,500 stores, that they are very much kind of green to the space, right? There's a lot of education still to be done.

AnnaRae Grabstein 7:33

Sure. I I think though, this this point about age verification is so relevant to what we are talking about within the kind of future evolution of cannabis access because the the regulated market has created these dispensaries, and we're going to be talking about dispensaries today with Tanya. Um, and a big part of that is about kind of making sure that these products are only going to adults. Um, but there's actually a lot of places in our culture that have been effectively doing age verification and age gating of adult products for a really long time. Um and so learning from those uh those existing businesses, but also looking at those as potential access points, I think is something that's exciting and opportunistic and interesting to explore.

Ben Larson 8:28

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the the thing I'm most excited about with the convenience store channel is that that moment of discovery, right? It's something that we very much lack in cannabis because of how tightly it's been controlled. You know, people generally just don't just stumble into a dispensary. We also are not, in most states, consuming it on site in restaurants and in in other places or or venues like like music venues, like we're seeing kind of those deals be spun up. And so, and and and we've even talked on on previous episodes, like sometimes people even have a challenge consuming in their own home because they're renters, right? Like, and so to think about how people do just stumble into convenience stores, maybe they're getting gas or something like that, and they'll buy a singular item, and oftentimes they're consuming those items within an hour of purchasing it. Like, that is a great way for cannabis products to to be normalized and to have people kind of explore and discover what what works for them. So yeah, really excited thinking, just like envisioning the future where we do have access to this particular channel.

AnnaRae Grabstein 9:35

Yeah, so interesting. Um, awesome. Well, uh, let's jump into a quick little update um on some news and then talk to Tanya.

SPEAKER_03 9:46

Uh absolutely.

AnnaRae Grabstein 9:48

Yeah. So I wanted to bring up this website called Boof De Jour. And uh BoofDeJour.com is a website that I first stumbled upon based on content on LinkedIn. And Ben, you and I have been texting each other these articles for the past like week and a half, and I've become obsessed. Boof de jour has quickly become like the gossip girl of the cannabis industry. It is like it mixes sort of sharp investigative journalism with a level of snark that I have really never seen in cannabis before, and I am so here for it. There is something about satire as this truth teller and satirists as the folks that have a license to really shine a mirror back at us that I really appreciate. Uh, but they're also totally anonymous. Uh, and any guesses of who these folks are, Ben? What do you think?

Ben Larson 10:44

No, I've I've been trying to figure it out. And just when I think I have a beat on it, they'll come out with a post that kind of like throws me off their scent. And like the their most recent one is an example of it. They have this headline that says, I Ohio protects children by replacing weed drinks with alcohol that tastes like recess. And and it's a picture of like Capri Sun hard lemonade or something like that. And it's like so on the nose, and it's like so true. But at the same time, I was surprised because it feels oddly supportive of the the TAC beverage category that's operating outside of dispensaries. And you know, usually when I see these accounts, they they're pretty um support. Like, I don't know, I think of the dink informer and how like like MSO focused it is. Um, but it this seems like a like anything's game, you don't really know what they're coming up, but it is a they're just truth tellers, and maybe that's it. Maybe they're looking from the outside and just like calling calling balls and strikes. But I'm here for it.

AnnaRae Grabstein 11:42

Yeah, me too. And I need more of it. So Bouffe de jour, if you're listening, thank you. Thank you for making us laugh in the face of things that feel very challenging sometimes.

Ben Larson 11:52

And um, we encourage everyone to go go check it out and just yeah, and if you if you become like the if you become the target of of one of their posts, like you're either gonna you you either step up and just like laugh at yourself and be like, yeah, it's true, or be like look, take a hard look in the mirror and and and realize that maybe there's a point to it, right? And I you know, I I think it's a good way to kind of clean us up a little bit, make us a little button button us up a little bit more.

AnnaRae Grabstein 12:21

Absolutely. Um broadly, like in in politics, I think that um that Al Franken was a great example of someone that transitioned from comedy to politics. And you know, he got me too'd, and I, you know, it didn't it didn't end well for poor Al Franken, but but I think that that there is this level of sometimes it starts with comedy, but it's just that we sometimes we need to hear it in a way that can make us laugh in order for us to get out of denial about what's so obvious and right in front of us.

Ben Larson 12:52

Um yeah, good one.

AnnaRae Grabstein 12:56

Well, in terms of getting out of denial, another piece of news that I think is actually very optimistic is uh about Georgia. Georgia is looking to finally expand their medical program. Uh the legislature has sent a bill to Governor Brian Kemp that expands the medical program by expanding it beyond the quote low THC oil, which is capped at 5%, and to allow vaping. And um, the bill passed through the House in Georgia 144 to 21. So it was like a slam dunk. And I think that is the interesting signal here. And it isn't signed into law by the governor yet. We don't really know what's gonna happen, but the fact that a conservative state like Georgia is looking to finally create a real actual pathway for products to exist in the state uh with such broad support from the House makes me think that Georgia might be joining the party soon.

Ben Larson 13:58

Yeah. You know, it's funny, I've uh historically not been the biggest fan of uh conservative states and their cannabis policies, but I will say that the silver lining is well, one, a lot of them have kind of accepted and created these these open TAC marketplaces through through the hem channel. But also, even though they started out very conservative on cannabis regulations in Georgia, what we'll throw in Texas, for example, like this iterative progression of like more access and and better rules instead of kind of this realm that in not to segue too early, but like you know, the what we find ourselves doing in California where the rules just get worse and worse over time instead of better. And so at least it's a positive trajectory for once. So congratulations to Georgia.

AnnaRae Grabstein 14:48

Yes, yes. I will eat a peach flavored gummy this afternoon for for everyone in Georgia. Ben, take us to California. What's going on there?

Boof De Jour And Cannabis Satire

Ben Larson 14:58

Oh man, uh speaking of, we have uh Jackie Irwin, who is in her her her last uh session, uh proposing uh restrictive letters. So there's AB 2532, which is largely focused on making labeling a lot more restrictive in under the guise of not being attractive to children, um, amongst many other things, but uh it just simply feels like it's being overly restrictive when I think the biggest challenge in California is that the existing regulations aren't being enforced, and so like why add more rules if the current ones aren't even being enforced? It's like step one, do that. And then there's AB2249, which is a direct assault on the beverage category. And so what many of us know, especially in California, is that low-dose beverages don't sell in dispensaries. And if you look at the numbers in Anna Ray, you did a great analysis coming out of headset that 90% of beverages being sold in California dispensaries are greater than 10 milligrams, and 2249 is trying to cap beverages at 10 milligrams, and there's a whole host of reasons why that this just won't work. This will essentially kill every beverage brand in California, and it's not just because the the consumers don't want it, but like the dispensaries and the distributors are not outfitted to support this category. There is no distributor in California to load pallets of beverages into. There is no storeroom that is looks like a safe or a locker at a dispensary that can store pallets of beverages. And so, if you're gonna take a 100 milligram bottle off the shelf, you have to replace it with 10 milligram beverages. Like this is just not gonna work. And so there's these two bills, it's her last session. That's important in California because California legislature generally likes to grant uh the the the outgoing legislators their their final wish. Um, apparently she has other bills coming as well, so maybe we can trade some of those, but I don't know. It's you the my biggest frustration is that you know there's been a lot of efforts we've been uh expending in other states, the federal government, and I thought California was like is what it was. Turns out that's not true, and then we're constantly have to trying to prevent ourselves from backsliding there as well.

AnnaRae Grabstein 17:29

Yeah, it it is, as you've said, the weird, strange year of prohibitionists and people like Jackie Irwin are trying to roll us back, and we're not gonna let that happen. Um, it is absolutely absurd. And and even though she's leaning into marketing to children, the reality is that these high potency beverages, the last time I encountered someone drinking one was when I went to, and I mentioned on the show a couple weeks ago, that I went to a living funeral of someone who's at the end of their life who's a cancer patient, and that person was drinking a hundred milligram Uncle Arnie's beverage. And um, those are the people that are grabbing those beverages. It's not me. And it's not me for like a fun afternoon. So um let's let's be serious and protect people's choice to choose products that are right for them. Um so let's let's crush this, Jackie Irwin. And you know, Jackie Irwin is also trying to um to to protect kind of um prolific and prolific and epic surf spots around California in a piece of legislation. So cool. Give her that. And um and all these surfers that she's trying to protect should um should come out and remind her that people really like to surf and consume cannabis together. It's a beautiful, it's a beautiful coming together. Of course, being safe.

Ben Larson 18:48

Um I don't know if it's an official stat, but I do strongly feel that the two most popular hobbies in Santa Cruz are surfing and smoking weed.

AnnaRae Grabstein 18:59

Totally. Yes, um, where I went to college. So um I feel that. Uh amazing. Well, we have ranted for a while, and we've got a great person in our green room who I can't wait to bring on. Um, my friend Tanya Griffin uh is a multi-hyphenate badass, in my opinion. Uh, she spent the last three decades building companies she's passionate about. Um, and now she has a growth management firm called Water and Trees that straddles cannabis, sexual wellness, um, fintech, and femtech, industries with a focus on scaling high-risk um retail and craft brands. And uh she entered cannabis by building the first vertically integrated cannabis franchise um in Illinois. And she has also is currently building two different product companies, OES and uh uh honey. And she has a nonprofit called Save My Life, which provides free Narcan uh nasal spray where people work, live, and play. We're gonna have a conversation talking about all of this. Uh, welcome, Tanya. Hey guys, great conversation.

SPEAKER_00 20:10

I think I want to go right for Booth Jour.

SPEAKER_03 20:13

I know.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

You aren't a weekly newsletter, right?

unknown 20:18

Yeah.

AnnaRae Grabstein 20:20

So excited that you're here with us. And um, I know that Ben doesn't know you. You and I um met last year and have since talked regularly about all things life, weed, women's health. And um we just had to make this conversation happen. So I'm excited for Ben to get to know you and for our audience to get to know you.

SPEAKER_00 20:41

Well, I'm happy to be here.

Ben Larson 20:44

Yeah. I mean, I indeed the intro alone, I'm I'm already slightly blushing.

SPEAKER_04 20:49

It's just like out of nervousness about where this is gonna go.

SPEAKER_00 20:53

Don't blush yet.

Ben Larson 20:56

I'm gonna blush saying the name of your company, I think.

AnnaRae Grabstein 21:00

Well, Tanya, why don't you just give us the background? Give us some origin story, how you got into cannabis, what you're doing now, all the things.

Georgia Medical Expansion Momentum

SPEAKER_00 21:09

Yeah, you know, I I have been building companies since the 90s, which dates me. Um started with kangaroo kids. I'm a midwife lactation consultant. And by the time I found my way to cannabis, I was living in Chicago. Come from an Irish Catholic drunken background where alcohol just rips through my family tree. And cannabis absolutely, you know, just made so much sense. Um then it was really the players back in the day that had done it right was Colorado. Even California was fledgling, Oregon, everybody else was falling down. I ended up partnering with a with a one of the biggest outfits at the time, the Green Solution, and we decided. Down, uh, the Spidells and I, and looked at how do we really move um this industry forward with no money? These were not trust fund kids. So that's when I really got behind building the first vertically integrated national cannabis franchise in the country. This is going back to 2014. We got it registered in every state. Tackled Illinois, which is my home state, which we're gonna talk about today and kind of managing retail. From the retail hat, I have been um building retail companies for um 35 years, privately owned, you know, mom and pops, because I I fund them myself, I build them myself. You know, when I when I exited um from my Illinois dispensaries, I owned the first round of Illinois dispensaries. Um I I probably should have uh retired and gone and played, but I love building companies. You know, it just it gets me up in the morning. Um so I I love sex and drugs. I have sex every day. It's just something I like. I see you, Ben, blushing. I see you. Uh so you know, I I I I went head first into the CPG space. I I built um OES, which is all sex, drugs, and rock and roll. I sell them to the dispensaries in Illinois and Missouri, you know, really pushing on the hemp and the farm bill. I sell direct to consumers um with CBD and CBG and leaning on terpenes. I never played with D8 and D9 in that space. Anna Ray, uh-huh, honey, is because I I fell into some, you know, patents out of Israel that were feeding the bees, honey bees, uh, an RSO-rich nectar full of either THC or hemp. Um, bees don't have an endocannabinoid system, so we don't get them high, but I get a single ingredient raw honey uh that is crazy super bioavailable, like nanoemulsifying, and wrap that through my OES products. Um, that's kind of it. You know, I've always done what I've loved. I've kind of followed where I'm at in life. Kangaroo kids is because I was a parent. I've got six kids and some grandkids, but now I'm into sex and drugs and my love for retail and you know, just meeting the customer every day, building process and procedures and you know, everything, customer acquisition and retention. Uh I bloody love it. Um, so that's where I'm at now. You know, my main what pays the bills obviously is not a CPG brand in the cannabis industry. That is a that's a moment of pivot and hold, and I'll be the last woman standing in sex and drugs if things keep going um the way they are. But my my growth management company, Water and Trees, I I've I've had that since uh 2008, started building healthcare companies in Chicago, surgical centers, cardiology practices. And when I saw where cannabis was heading, um, this is 2011 and the rumblings in Illinois were starting. Um, that's when I parted with partnered with the Green Solution, wrote the application, won the licenses, and now I've got the cannabis stink on me forever. It's never going away. So that's it. That's my uh journey from uh colostrum to cannabis to come for sure.

Ben Larson 25:51

Colostrum to cannabis to come. All right. I can see why Anna Ray and you are friends.

SPEAKER_02 26:00

Um so okay.

Ben Larson 26:04

Well, yeah, I mean, I do want to explore all of that, and and I I do. Um, but I'm gonna start here in Chicago because I'm sitting here. And I was actually touring a bunch of facilities yesterday and talking to some of the operators, and some of the uh some of the narratives that we hear coming out of Illinois seem seem to run ring true. And and that's the big bad wolf of of the MSOs. And they have a very present um kind of uh reputation out here, and it seems like everything everyone was saying is maybe true. As far as like pressure on kind of some of the small operators and the mom and pops, and and you were kind of talking about that, and you you have such a positive outlook on everything, and I'm like, that's very refreshing. And and and so I guess my question is like, what keeps you positive? What what do people need to know about competing in this particular marketplace and like how to navigate you know something that is so entrenched with these large operators that could be very challenging to compete with?

California Bills Target Labels And Drinks

SPEAKER_00 27:09

Great question. Um, what keeps me positive is I'm constantly chewing the dopamine chains, Ben. Pulling back from that. Um, Illinois is such an interesting market. I mean, I mentioned that I got my start really in Illinois, and that's where all of the MSOs got their start. I mean, I remember sitting around the table with PharmaCan and all Ben and Charlie, everybody, we were all doing the same thing back in 2012, 13, before we got the licenses. Some of those guys I just mentioned uh aren't around anymore. You know, they've already they've already crashed and burned. But because Illinois was the the seed, the seed bed for these bigger organizations to get their start, um, now they're hunkering down and and and you know growing their roots. So since I I parted with the green solution, um what Water and Trees is really focused on is helping build soup to nuts, uh dispensaries for what became the focus, which is social equity applicants. Now that's a hard, that's a hard lift uh because you don't have, you win the license because of some criteria, and we help them win them, but you don't have the expertise, the experience, and you certainly don't have the capital to do what it takes um to to make it in the Illinois market, which which cannibalizes each other. What we're seeing right now in Illinois, we we just saw the first lawsuit hit uh with X2 vets, I think. That hearing in the in Cook County uh is gonna, you know, be in May. I think it's May 5th. That's the first push where they're taking the IDFPR to court to say, hey, listen, this is an unfair advantage. These multi-state operators are all using MSAs, multi-you know management services agreements to to um get beyond the the the law which says 10 dispensaries. So that's it that's hard. I I we operate and do the buying and and literally build soup to nuts, uh, several dispensaries uh in Illinois, and it is difficult. It's difficult when you don't have that uh layers of of admin help and support and and the ability to instead of just drinking from a fire hose, which no matter what traditional retail or cannabis retail, as an owner operator, that is what you do on a daily basis. You put out fires, you're drinking from a fire hose. So if you're going up against Rise or Sunnyside or any of these companies that can take a step back and look at their operations and grow them methodically if they choose to do so, you are at a disadvantage as a mom and pop. That could be a one-off, which is makes it particularly difficult. Or if you're sitting at the level of five to seven, you're still up against it.

AnnaRae Grabstein 30:25

Well, so you're talking you mentioned that there's a 10 cap of stores in Illinois. We haven't done a super deep dive on the Illinois market on this show. And I think that it would be useful to talk about the market structure there because one of the things that is so interesting and kind of fun, but also complicated about cannabis is how all these different states have different market dynamics that are driving kind of what ends up happening in the business kind of environment that everyone's competing in. So can you give us an overview of the market structure in Illinois? Who was supposed to win, who's actually winning, and how does the market work broadly?

SPEAKER_00 31:07

Yes, absolutely. The MSOs are winning. There's no doubt about it. They got their start there. They are well capitalized. Um, like I said, when when you scale operations, you you have some absolute advantages over the smaller mom and pops. What we're seeing most recently, you know, like with the crash of PharmaCan and VeraLife, where where are those licenses going? There are rumors around that. We can look at Cresco using an MSA to become upside, buying Cloud9. So we're watching in real time the consolidation happen. We're watching the smaller mom and pops, not necessarily social equity, because that's all uh a muddled mess, as you know, no matter which state that you're looking at. But we're we're seeing a lot of distress. You know, it's it's dispensaries are very, very difficult to operate. And then by extension, you know, there aren't there's not a lot of meat on the bone. Um, and because of that, uh these dispensaries are cannibalizing each other. I mean, we can look at Ohio and Yorston and the AG there did with going after the MSOs relative to price fixing. So we're gonna see those disadvantages. We we hand these licenses, whether it be straight up uh or through a lottery. Now it's all gonna be Virginia, it's all gonna go to lottery at this point, but it's social equity applicants that are winning these things, but they're not in a position to uh own and operate. In my opinion. And Illinois is the perfect example of that. It's where it got its start, the multi-state operators.

Ben Larson 32:52

So we're we're we're feeling this kind of price compression, this kind of like bottoming out, so to speak. And I don't know if we're at the bottom yet or close, but uh uh you know, some markets teach us there's always more you could go down. Um, feeling that there's this tension, you you gotta in in what you were mentioning, what's happening uh with AG Yoast, like what's the silver lining? What's what's pulling us through? Where do we feel the energy is flowing in that where we're gonna start kind of climbing back out of this? Like, you know, do you feel like there there is a through line by which the these social equity operators will be able to leverage folks like yourself and get to viability? Um, what do we need to happen to enable that viability to be true?

SPEAKER_00 33:43

I'm gonna start with what we we need to happen. Um I think it and I'm not and believe it or not, I'm not gonna start with Schedule three and rescheduling and alleviating some of the pressures of 280e. I I think what what we're seeing is that these smaller operators do not have access to capital. That I mean, I that has to be one of the biggest lifts that we can alleviate. Guess what it's not? And this is the positive thing. It's not consumer demand. We love cannabis, consumers love cannabis. Look at look at Gen Z. Across the board, we're watching, you know, what we saw, 40 billion drop out of the alcohol stocks, you know, overnight. So consumers love the plant, they love the product, they love consuming it. That that gives me tremendous hope. What we need to see is more support uh on the lending side. We need to see, you know, the markets opening up. One of the big challenges, if you're a small uh mom and pop operator, you come into this without the experience you need. I mean, you can grab a consultant like myself or wrap yourself in a franchise. There's different ways to do it. But the problem remains, you don't you, you know, nobody wants to lend you money without two years of successful operations. So there's there's a lift right there. When I first started building retail companies in the 90s, I I meant Kangaroo Kids. I mean, I had a restaurant first, but by the time I was 24, maybe, I opened Kangaroo Kids. I walked into Heartland Bank with experience and they just liked me and the SBA handed me money. And I did multiple SBA loans subsequent to that. So in traditional retail, I was able to scale my companies, build chains, put multiple locations because I leverage the SBA. That's not an option in cannabis. We we need vehicles by which we can sustain these companies. I I do a lot of work with a group, but you guys probably know Bob Hopen and he's behind a group called C Trust. Now, this is interesting. C Trust is creating scores, FICA scores, basically, you know, good karma scores and monitoring these licenses so that we can free up some capital. Because if you've ever owned a small business, you understand that without that flexibility and capital, it's very hard to grow. You you're just cut off at the knees every time.

AnnaRae Grabstein 36:33

So I think that's not to not to be the negative Nancy, but you know, we we had uh Steve Ernest from Chicago Atlantic on uh last week recently, and they've deployed over three billion in debt to cannabis companies, but they don't like to deploy less than five million dollars. Um they do way more than that. And so their target in terms of the type of business that they invest in are not small businesses. And so even with something like a credit score, like who or where is this capital going to come from?

SPEAKER_00 37:08

I'll tell you who wants to step up uh Anna Ray. It's it's this consortium. I'm I'm gonna call it a consortium, but I've labeled that. It's these uh cannabis-friendly financial institutions, and a lot of these guys are small or to medium-sized credit unions that get lending into cannabis. So there are places that we can go to free up capital, and and you're talking about small, smaller pieces of this, you know, a half a million dollar revolving line of credit. And that can even be secured. It could even have, you know, be secured by property at 60 to 70 percent LTV. So there are ways to do this if we start looking at the industry as a credible industry and we start accepting these operators and give them a chance. Because otherwise, how do you go head to head with GTI at this point? I mean, it's it's so if if I've got a small social equity mom and pop shop that I've opened up and and it's me against Ben Culver, who's gonna win that battle? That's a toughie. So we've got to help.

Tanya Griffin’s Origin And Companies

Ben Larson 38:14

Just for clarity, you mentioned C trust, and is is that um is that showing traction? Like are are banks actually looking at that as like a positive indicator for someone.

SPEAKER_00 38:27

To my understanding, absolutely, yes. They're building relationships with these financial institutions um while talking to Chicago Atlantic, you know what I mean? So it's not that you can't look at the 6.6 billion in debt that's about to, you know, to come to fruition here while helping uh from like more of a uh SBA vantage point, these social equity and mama pop Africans. Guys, remember what we've done here over, you know, since when Illinois popped, I was able to be an owner of dispensaries because I was a wait for it, a woman. I'm not kidding. That was one of the criteria. Now I gotta have a misdemeanor, I gotta live in the hood, I all of these criteria that take it out of those things. And then we give these individuals a license, one golden ticket, but we force them to roll up into an MSO or to go get funding out in a high-risk VC family, whatever that funding looks like. Trust me, it's not pretty. There's a reason why I own all of my companies 100%. And that's because the challenges in this candidate market right now, I need to stay lean, pivot. And when everybody else crashes, I want to be the last girl standing. Because it's tough out there, and the debt you take on is ultimately gonna eat you alive, especially for social athletics.

AnnaRae Grabstein 40:03

So then let's let's pivot and talk about not retail stuff. Let's talk about other parts of you and what you're working on in your business reality. Um, I think that one of the things that has been so fun in getting to know you is that you will talk about creating systems and prioritizing SOPs and also having sex every day in the same sentence. And so there's this incredible, there's like this incredible kind of like like, whoa, like here is a woman that seems to have it all, and she is creating products that are aligned with her passion for for drugs and sex and all these things like as women age. And I'd like I'd like you to talk about that a little bit more um through whatever lens you think is appropriate.

SPEAKER_00 40:54

I I'm gonna start with stop shaming my sex and drugs. You guys spoke about it at the living wake. An individual with cancer chooses to drink a hundred milligram beverage. Here's where I stand on this. As long as I am not harming another person, let me be. Stop shaming my sex and drugs. And I am so out there on this because I think it's gonna be my hill to die on. I write a newsletter every week, which is really me writing to myself in practice because no one reads anymore. But I but I do that because it is important to me to get it out there that you can be a female, a successful business owner, you can also have sex every day, you can you can use cannabis, dabble in classical psychedelics if you choose. And that's your choice. And that doesn't mean um I'm gonna end up in rehab. It doesn't mean that my life is is any worse. On the contrary, my life is far better. I'm far more productive when I'm able to practice and drop into those flow states. The amount of work I can get done in a day when it comes to building process and procedure and dialing in systems that help scale and grow a company is because I love sex and drugs. And I think that if we don't lead by example and start putting it out there that maybe alcohol and our SSRIs and our dependence on pharmaceutical drugs wasn't the answer, but that we need more of us saying that there's another way forward for this. And I I am very happy that I landed in the cannabis industry. And by extension, uh, not that I'm gonna go sell classical psychedelics, but I'm I'm certainly in favor of those. And I don't think anyone else should tell me what I can do, the sex I can have, or the drugs I can take, provided I'm in my space, not hurting another person and doing good for myself. Anna Ray, what was the actual question?

SPEAKER_04 43:18

No, no one cares. It's my turn to ask questions.

AnnaRae Grabstein 43:21

I lost my dad.

SPEAKER_04 43:22

That was my do you have sex every day, Ben?

Ben Larson 43:27

So that was the kind of motivation I would love that. I but no, I don't not not to give away too much information. But I'm kind of curious, like, what came first, or has this always been been your hill, or was there an unlock? What was did the cannabis industry help you get there? Like, yeah. How do we get Tanya Griffin today?

Illinois MSOs And Social Equity Reality

SPEAKER_00 43:47

And what was Tanya Griffin yesterday? I've always had a I am the oldest of 10 kids. My dad was my dad has passed away, but he was so eccentric. Anytime he got into a Room, he would cause problems. Literally. So I sort of grew up with the entrepreneurial bug deeply. Again, I've I really haven't really worked for other people before. I really have always run my own companies and um fought whatever battle was in front of me without shame. So this has been my my MO for a long time. When I fell into cannabis, I couldn't believe my luck. Like here was something that has been prohibited and shamed for a hundred years, kind of like abstaining from sex, like they all married together. And of course, I have a great love for rock and roll. So as soon as that hit then, um, when all those things came together, it was pretty obvious to me the battles I was gonna fight. And and not to compare myself to Mr. Beast, because I am so far from that, but I understand what it means to get out there and try to connect community while saying, listen, I'm gonna I'm gonna add value to your life. And if you choose to buy my lube, he's got chocolate, I got lube, so be it. You know, that that to me is where um we're heading, I think, consumers with this ability to look under the hood to instantly know who the owner is, what they're doing, if they're authentic. You know, I used to drive a Tesla, I drive a bike now. I mean, how quickly I had to sell that thing with the behavior of Elon Musk. So I think as we progressively, especially the younger generation, continue to make decisions based on the authenticity and the credibility of these owners and decide with their pocketbooks where things are going. We as as owners and operators, we need to behave differently and and accommodate that. Um, and I love that space. I I want to be accountable in that respect, whether I'm building dispensaries um or you know, throwing lube out into the market.

SPEAKER_04 46:23

I want to talk a little bit more about the lube. So excuse me, Ann Ray.

Ben Larson 46:29

But no, I am I I think not just myself, I think our audience is probably interested in just knowing, like more specifically, drilling down into this overlap between sex and cannabis and and how you perceive it and some of the products, and just talk about yeah, how how you've incorporated into that kind of intersection of the two.

SPEAKER_00 46:48

Any of your listeners who have had sex while using cannabis, uh we don't need to go back to the 30s and the reefer madness and lack up your white men and they're gonna become sexual freaks. The fact that that sex and drugs, particularly cannabis and and I will argue classical psychedelics, whether that's psilocybin or LSD or MDNA, these things go very, very well together. When I looked at the market back in what 2020, when I started OES, I was just shocked that nobody was had had taken advantage of this marriage, this marriage between sex and drugs. Now there is a problem here in that we globally are choosing to have less sex. I would like to change that. I think sex is um one of the few things we we've got in as the world burns down around us. The fact that I get to have sex every day and throw down several orgasms is a win for me. The lube, Ben, you know, my my best product, uh the product that I use daily is my FDA cleared product, my unplugged silicone lube. Now, of course, I've got all of my lubes are for edible sex play. So it's not like there's a magic potion in THC or CBD or CBG or even the terpenes. This is what it's about. It's about showing up and staying present. So going down is my oral sex elixir. It's not that I'm gonna guarantee poor Anna Ray an orgasm here, it's that she's gonna show up and have sex. You, Ben, can have your orgasm all day long. Women struggle. We get this clutter and this noise in our head. And the challenge for us is really about showing up. And where cannabis helps with that is it starts pushing back on the noise. It helps you let go of some of those inhibitions and fight through and show up for a good blowjob or or or show up for those multiple orgasms, which by the way, I would never trade being a woman. We have it so good. I mean, single session, multiple orgasms, Ben. You're getting old. So you may pull off one. You gotta, you gotta probably, you got a refractory period we shouldn't even discuss on this podcast, right? Anna Ray and I are building this.

SPEAKER_04 49:27

Bold assumptions, ladies and gentlemen, bold assumptions.

SPEAKER_00 49:31

But the point is, look what these drugs can do. I mean, cannabis is our Viagra. I would argue that you could push into the again, the classical psychedelics, uh, you know, MDMA every once in a while for a couple, or microdosing psilocybin or LSD. Those are all things that help us sit in that moment and show up for sex. And I'm all for it. So that's what oh yes is to me.

AnnaRae Grabstein 49:58

Well, and so I want to add this other layer because as I've gotten to know you and you've gotten to know me and asked me all kinds of crazy questions about things that usually no one asks me about on a Zoom call. Um you've also kind of brought brought uh hormones to the table in the conversation as well. And I know that you are also like a an advocate, really. I think broadly when I think about it, for just living and feeling fabulous. And um and looking at like which I think is highly relevant in this moment where there is all kinds of peptides and GLP1s and experimentation going on around longevity and the whole longevity industry kind of converging with technology. And I think that the work that you're doing is actually very kind of parallel to that because what you're talking about is that we all have a right to feel fabulous, show up present, and that that can be the unlock for us to be great business people. And um and that's just has been really inspiring in getting to know you. So I I appreciate it, but I I also think that that that broadly that it's it's highly aligned, Ben, with what we talk about all the time, which is how authenticity, being present, um, taking care of ourselves is is the unlock. And Tanya kind of just embodies this in every way. I just want to bottle it up.

Capital Access And Alternative Lending

SPEAKER_00 51:28

Um, Anna Ree, you know about this stuff. You know that my my interest and and I and I have done a lot of work over the last four years in the femtech space, and and where that excites me, and and I built femtech and rec tech software for safe harbor, I all of that is was part of my journey. So the tech side of this industry of cannabis is super important for me. So I have I'm in the early stages with WeFlow Yo, and here's this is what you and I often talk about because we're navigating a shift in hormones as women do, and the fact that there has not been a legitimate or fair focus on women's health up until very recently. We could say the late 90s, we just sort of slightly shifted our focus, and we're just now recognizing that this femtech space means something. So my passion around helping others hit that bliss and dial in longevity is with WeFLOYO, it's really it's it's about we must start understanding where we sit and take responsibility for our own health and our own happiness. And that comes, I believe, with tracking um the application, the dosing, uh, the timing of the drugs we take. Now, of course, that can be prescription drugs, it can be supplements, but equally it is recreational drugs. And until we start really dialing those in so that we can factor in flow states, what makes me so happy every day, um, we need to stop shaming these drugs, look at the countrations, have real conversations. I have six kids. They have, we, and I am very open with my kids. So we talk about sex, they don't like that part, but we talk about drugs, they're all open there. They ear muffin on the sex part. You don't want to talk to your mom about sex. But when it comes to drugs, you know, all of my children are who are now 24 through 31. I've got grandkids, it they've always had access to drugs. We have to remember that we have a very robust black market. Access to LSD, cocaine, heroin, cannabis on the black market, these drugs are not hard to come by. What's missing is the conversation about them. I mean, if you want to know why I started Save My Life 10 years ago, giving out free Narcan all over Illinois, it's because we're making huge mistakes in prohibiting and shaming these drugs when we need to be talking about them. Um, that's how we keep our kids safe. That's how we demystify and and we we bifurcate these drugs. I mean, uh fentanyl should not be in the same bucket as cannabis. Heroin doesn't get to get in the same bucket as psilocybin. And yet, when it hits the masses, we throw them all into the same place. We just you know juggle them up, and then everything becomes a gateway drug. We, you and I, we on this call know better. Those of us in this industry know better. But how come everybody's so afraid to have the conversation? Guess who's not? Our booth boys, booth de jour. I mean, we we need to use humor and be clever and stop shaming these things, whether it's sex or drugs, both have very, very positive attributes. I think. Listen, I'm old. Uh and I and I indulge in both happily while building companies, and all day long it's a good thing. By the way, I do yoga and I run too. Can I fit in a couple of orgasms a day? This could be you.

Ben Larson 55:36

So sex, yoga, rock and roll, launching brands, advisory, advocacy, education, like six kids.

SPEAKER_00 55:47

Well, the kids anymore. No spare bedroom, bed. That's the trick. No, see, not a hotel.

Ben Larson 55:54

Got it. But I I like this term Anna Ray used, the the multi-hyphenite founder, right? Like, and I this is you multi-omni-hyphenate. Um you have so much passion and drive. And I through this conversation, I think I might know some of the answers to this, but like, how do you keep that passion when you are following it and it leads you in so many directions and launching new products and you know, tending to your family and and to your hobbies? Like, how do you keep your head on straight? Like, like, how do you keep centered and motivated?

SPEAKER_00 56:28

When you love what you're doing, there's always enough time in the day. And and I mean that. If you really think about what it takes, what is it? I think it's Abe Lincoln that does the parable of you know, uh, sawing down the tree. You need to spend four hours sharpening the knife, two hours uh sawing down the tree. So when you're living in these places and you have years and years of practice that I do on making decisions and problem solving and practicing and practicing and practicing, dropping into those flow states, building companies and following your passions comes a lot easier, easier. Now, I I wasn't able to do this in my 20s, my 30s, or even my 40s, the way I can do it now. And that's because um I've had a lot of practice making decisions and solving problems when I grow companies, so it just gets easier, and then you just want to go after it, then you just want to keep solving those problems. So I think it's really passionate is the driving force to get some of this stuff done. You just can't look away.

Ben Larson 57:43

But you've never come close to like burnout.

SPEAKER_00 57:46

I have uh I have not. And and that Ben, that doesn't mean I haven't hit rock bottom. I mean, I have obviously had negative money in my bank account. I mean, I so it does, it has nothing to do with crashing and burning. It has to do again with passion and learning how to pick yourself back up, learn from your mistakes, which I've had so many, um, and and and keep hitting it.

Ben Larson 58:17

Um I guess the orgasm literally keep yeah, I'm just gonna say, I think the key here is sex every day.

AnnaRae Grabstein 58:25

Uh because if if you have sex every day, the amount of like confidence and kind of that dopamine, it's like you never actually feel like a loser, right? Like you're not really ever losing. Never losing.

SPEAKER_02 58:45

Exactly.

AnnaRae Grabstein 58:46

Oh my gosh. Tanya, I mean, everyone should reach out to Tanya and just talk with her because she's the best. Come on, baby. She gives the greatest Zoom, also of all.

SPEAKER_00 59:04

Uh, this one's a good one. I'm gonna take you on some of my road trips. And what we talk about is how to have more sex and do more drugs on your road trips.

AnnaRae Grabstein 59:16

Amazing. Well, so it is the end of the hour. Uh, so it's time for our last call. Uh, so Tanya, what is your final message for our listeners? Advice, call to action, closing thought.

SPEAKER_00 59:29

Oh, I'm gonna have to go with peace and love here. The world is burning. Grab on to a partner, try to have some partnered sex, do not be ashamed of your sex, your drugs. And uh we can do this. We can do this collectively. I this is my last statement on our cannabis industry, which you and Ben and I are so much a part of. We got this. We're gonna have to start working together, stop fighting each other, uh, and go build these things and stop cannibalizing each other. There is enough to go around. The consumers have spoken, young to old. We have decided that we like cannabis, and we're starting to decide that we may even like classical psychedelics. So, understanding where the consumers sit, we as the business owners need to show up and uh share the love. Peace and love.

Ben Larson 1:00:29

I love it. Peace and love, Tanya Griffin, uh, founder uh of WeFlow Yo, Water and Treats. Oh, oh yes, uh-huh, honey. And the list goes on and on. I I I feel like we could talk to you for hours. Thank you so much for for spending the last hour with us. This is really great.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:48

Thank you, Ben. Bye, Yannarae. I'll talk to you soon.

unknown 1:00:53

Woo!

SPEAKER_04 1:00:54

All right.

AnnaRae Grabstein 1:00:56

Are you feeling it?

SPEAKER_04 1:00:57

Yeah, this is awesome.

AnnaRae Grabstein 1:00:59

I know you gotta get home to your wife now faster.

Ben Larson 1:01:02

I know I'm stuck in this hotel room uh with conference vibes downstairs. But uh, what do you think, folks? Are are you ready to go have more sex and consume more drugs and rock and roll? I hope so.

AnnaRae Grabstein 1:01:13

And start businesses while you're doing it.

Ben Larson 1:01:15

Lots of businesses and kids. I mean, everything. Uh, if you've liked this episode, please stop, like, subscribe, share, do all the things, leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Thank you to our teams at Virtosa and Wolfmeyer. Without you guys, we couldn't be doing this, and of course, our producer, Eric Rossetti. As always, folks, stay curious, stay informed, and keep your spirits high. Until next time, that's the show.