Cold Open: Redefining Medicine

SPEAKER_02 0:00

I'm 24 years in, right? Like I know this is a heavy lift. And honestly, the Controlled Substance Act might have been the easy part. Um, because now what we have to do is redefine medicine. But this is actually part of a global movement. This is not just in the United States, and it's not just about cannabis, right?

Ben Larson 0:36

Hey everybody, welcome to episode 128 of High Spirits. I'm Ben Larson, and with me as always is Anna Ray Grabstein. We're recording Tuesday, March 3rd, 2026, and we've got another great episode for you today. We have Steph Sharon from Americans for Safe Access, ASA, and we're going to talk about rescheduling schedule six, if you've ever heard of it. Maybe you've heard of it, it's really great. Anyways, uh, we're back from Miami. I'm still pretty tired. Slept 10 hours last night. I don't ever do that. Um, Anna Ray, are are are you recovered yet? Is it just me?

AnnaRae Grabstein 1:18

It's not just you. It's there's been a lot of travel and not only travel, but a lot of intellectual stimulation, lots of late nights and action. Um, I am tired, but you know, I'm finally um back in my routine. I have like a really kind of every Monday I do um a workout session with a personal trainer and I'd missed it the past two weeks from a lot of of different travel work travel, and it felt so good yesterday to just go and be like, all right, I'm back in my regular Monday. I got this, and I'm gonna keep going. So um I'm I'm gonna kick this tired stuff. That's what I say, and I hope that for you too.

Ben Larson 2:00

I I love that. I I thought I was there yesterday morning as well. I was at the gym at five in the morning, I was crushing my day, and then like the afternoon hit me, and I'm like, is this what jet lag feels like? Uh I've never been one to have jet lag, but I am getting older, and maybe this is what it is. But hopefully last night's sleep session uh knocked it out. But uh, I'm a little loopy today, so apologies if I come out of left field with something.

AnnaRae Grabstein 2:24

Well, I think it was worth it. I think we should share a little bit of our takeaways from what we were both doing in Miami last week because it is far to travel from California, but it was super useful to be there. It was a really great event. And um, I both learned a lot. I had great conversations, and um, I can't say that I'm incredibly optimistic, but I feel more clear about a path forward if there ever was one. How about you?

Why Beverage Became The Battleground

Ben Larson 2:51

Yeah, yeah. I uh you know, for everyone listening, if you weren't aware, Canada Bev Summit was in Miami last week. It's uh formally known as Canadatacon, hosted by Delta Emerald Adventures. And uh last year after Canadaticon, I talked to Ian and Ian Dominguez of of Delta Emerald, and we both both basically agreed that you know beverage needed to be the focus this year, and especially after November hit, um, you know, it being three months later, it seemed like it was a really critical point to bring together all the business leaders to just see where we were at with like hemp policy and and where prospects were. And and I think much of the industry is aware that the extension language that we're hoping to sneak into the to the the farm bill um has not really gained much traction. Uh there's a hearing actually today, is is it today? Um and yeah, I I don't think the amendment got accepted. There'll probably be some discussion about it, but um, it really just brings home the point that uh if there is going to be an opportunity to have in this case hemp beverages uh maintain their position on on store shelves, like there has to be some real significant progress. And uh what was great was who was in the room. Um, this really was truly the the most powerful cannabis conference I have ever been a part of. Um, there were business leaders from outside the industry truly invested, not just like in the room, navel gazing, trying to pick up information, but participating in the conversation. I think that's really powerful. You know, we we had major retail uh executives, major distributor executives participating on panels and telling us the way they feel it should happen or the way they anticipate it happening. And um, you know, at the end of the conference, in in my closing remarks, I kind of equated to it's like, you know, for the longest time, cannabis has been pushing itself into relevancy and begging for for time on stage and waving our own banners. And um, it was quite significant to feel this moment where other people were trying to pull us into relevance and to fight alongside us. Um, although, and you know, what they anticipate that looking like is pretty restrictive. I mean, very restrictive for what most of the hemp industry would like to see, but even restrictive for what the hemp beverage category would like to see. And so um I think it's important for other people, not just in beverage, to kind of hear these conversations. And I'm really glad that you were there actually, because like you aren't officially, I mean, you're guilty by association, but you're not officially like a beverage executive, so to speak. So, like, I'm really interested in what your takeaways were.

Retail And Distributor Power Weigh In

AnnaRae Grabstein 5:47

Yeah, I I mean, I think that the big takeaway that I saw is that hemp beverage seems to be pulling away from the rest of the hemp form factors with an understanding that if they want to continue to exist, that staying connected to hemp joints and hemp vapes and everything else that's in the hemp category is not serving them. And so, to really create a separation, that was clear. Also, um, locking arms with bevelk seems to be the strategy that the hemp beverage space has decided is the most practical or realistic path to uh not be eliminated after November. And what that looks like seems to be uh finding a place for hemp beverage within the three-tier alcohol system uh that's regulated at the federal level. Mostly at the federal level, what we're seeing is um production and distribution, and then the states regulate retail. And it's not the same structure that the uh legal cannabis space has implemented, uh, certainly, but it seems to be the path forward that hemp beverage is trying to take at this point. And uh within that context, there was a lot of historical reflection about what happened after prohibition and how after prohibition alcohol just wasn't 100% legal, but there was an incremental uh progressive movement to first legalize 3.2% beer, and that over time the um industry was able to open up larger potency alcohol products, and eventually now you see there's things like 151 on the shelf, but that that wasn't immediate. And so that was that was huge. And then I also I moderated an investor panel, and I was going into that conversation uh very skeptical of like what is going on here with this massive regulatory uncertainty that investors could still be getting to a place of comfortability to write a check. And what I heard ultimately is that investors are watching the extreme consumer signaling um of their desire for this category, and that that signal is creating confidence in investability in some types of companies, not all, but um but that the consumer signal is still so strong, even though there is extreme kind of policy challenge ahead for the category. So I I've paid a lot of attention to that as well, and I think it's interesting. I I don't I don't see as much money coming into the space during this uncertain time as we saw last year, but uh there is some optimism, and there was even some creative uh suggestions that um Ian Dominguez suggested actually that someone had pitched him on, which was basically like a an a future investment commit uh commitment if some type of clarity legislatively occurs, meaning that founders and executives that have been in a growth phase of their business shouldn't sit on their laurels now. They can still be talking to investors who may be willing to commit, kind of in the case of more clarity so that as soon as that happened, the check would be able to be written, as opposed to waiting to start a pros uh process to be bringing in capital for growth once we know about November, which because it takes months to close deals. And uh that way you're you're in it now, you're working on it, and you still have to wait. But there is some level of confidence if if the industry is successful at finding a place for itself.

Hemp Beverage Seeks Alcohol Pathway

Ben Larson 9:54

So yeah, yeah, um, that's my takeaway. Yeah, the the one last thing I would add is I just to be clear, I don't think either the hemp beverages or or the alcohol companies have chosen this as the path, but all these organizations are investing a lot of money into being on the hill and talking to legislature and uh or or Congress and and um you know different regulatory bodies, and this is what it's coming down to. This is what we're being told. And oftentimes the phrase is like, well, would you like to have something or would you like to have nothing? And they say that very confidently. Um, and so and even with that, with that something, you know, I hear a lot of people pushing back, and they're like, Yep, that's not gonna happen. And so, you know, I think that's that's what we're pushing for. We're pushing for something in in in place of nothing. Sure.

AnnaRae Grabstein 10:46

Well, let's um hit on two other short news updates, and then we should bring our guest on because we've talked too long about this. Uh, but it is really interesting. Uh, quick update uh Virginia, a state that a lot of folks have been watching for a long time because they actually passed uh legalization legislation in 2021, but it just hasn't it hasn't become effectuated for a number of different reasons. But it seems like we're getting closer to adult use cannabis sales in Virginia. Uh the Senate and the Assembly is reconciling legislation there uh to launch adult use cannabis along with resentencing past cannabis convictions and um creating a pathway to allow medical cannabis use in hospitals. So it seems like Virginia is on the precipice of some major uh progress when it comes to this category. And then New York, uh, we spoke about this. Ben and I have been making regular appearances on Friday at the Cultivated Media uh this week in cannabis uh news update. We talked about this a little bit, but uh John Kajia uh has been appointed the new acting executive director of the Office of Cannabis Management in New York, which is the regulatory agency overseeing cannabis in New York. And uh it is to great acclaim, honestly. I haven't seen the industry celebrate the appointment of a regulator in quite some time, but people are really uh hopeful that this is a good one. Uh, John has spent time uh in the cannabis industry working uh on the data side for a while, and then has been at the OCM and has been a strong advocate both for equity, for data and kind of quantitative intelligence into the industry and has been a great partner to lots of folks. So people are excited.

Investor Sentiment And Consumer Signal

Ben Larson 12:47

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm sitting a country away from from John, and I know him as just a really invested and and good-hearted man, right? And um I I also am excited about that, especially after seeing the DCC here in California point someone, and everyone immediately hitting Google's like, who is this person? Like, I've actually met John, like he showed up to to cannabis industry events and and represented and spoke, you know, very eloquently about what they're trying to achieve in New York. So um, yeah, John, congratulations, godspeed, and and congratulations to to the New York market. It it is great to have a partnership um with regulators rather than this kind of us versus them that persists in a lot of markets.

AnnaRae Grabstein 13:36

Yeah, and John has an uphill battle in front of him. It is no simple task and uh overseeing a market as big as New York. Right now, one of the biggest challenges that they're facing has been their track and trace rollout with metric, uh, which they're the loudest voice in the room right now is uh a group of folks that are very upset about the way that this QR code called retail ID has been rolled out, which forces uh licensees to pay 10 cents every time they print the QR code on the label. And they didn't have to do that a few months ago before track and trace was implemented. So people are pissed, and it's costing some people millions of dollars, uh, which of course, in 10 cent increments, that means that they're also making millions of products. That said, uh, I would say that from my observation of the market nationwide, that this complaint from licensees is really a structural problem with the way that the metric contract exists between the state and the company metric. Because in California, we also have metric retail IDs, but they don't cost anything for operators, and people actually really love them because it streamlines scanning at retail and COAs and all kinds of transparency, but it's because nobody's paying for them. But they are paying for them, they just don't see it. And the difference is that the licensing fees in a state like California are very high, and that the state is actually paying for uh retail ID as part of its contract with Metric, whereas the licensing fees in New York are very low, and instead there's all these add-on fees that come at in different kinds of increments that the state is charging or metric is charging. And it's it's really it's psychological, um, um, I think, in some ways. That's my perspective.

Ben Larson 15:37

But anyway, good old New York. We don't need any more taxes, and this is a form of a tax.

Something Versus Nothing In D.C.

AnnaRae Grabstein 15:42

So it feels like that for sure. Um, shall we uh cue up our guest? Okay, let's do it. Our guest today is Steph Scherer, founder and executive director of Americans for Safe Access, a prolific medical cannabis patient advocacy organization. Since launching ACE in 2002, she has trained more than 100,000 advocates and helped shape legislation at every level of government, worked with the World Health Organization on cannabis' therapeutic recognition, and played a role in changing its status under international drug treaties. Um, after years of advancing policy on a global stage, Steph returned in 2024 to lead ASA's second act, a nationwide push to fully integrate cannabis-based medicines into the U.S. healthcare system. And um, I personally have followed Steph's career and ASA's work since very early in my own cannabis journey. So really excited to have her today. Welcome, Steph.

SPEAKER_02 16:40

Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. It's good to see you all.

AnnaRae Grabstein 16:44

Yeah, see you. I'm trying to like blabbed so long about hemp beverage at the beginning. I think we just couldn't couldn't help ourselves.

SPEAKER_02 16:52

No, it's very, it's very interesting, definitely to see you know the players that are involved. I mean, when I first started Americans for Safe Access, I felt often like it was just me, a few people. You know, we couldn't even get um researchers to put their name on documents that they helped me write about medical cannabis. So, you know, it's um it's definitely uh a new world.

Ben Larson 17:14

Well, and and we'll get into all of it, but it does raise interesting conversations, especially on LinkedIn, about what is medical, what is access, what are patients, and where are they finding their cannabinoids. So we'll we'll we'll dive into to all of that. Um but yeah, I would love to just kind of get the audience acquainted with you and your journey because you have been at this for a number of years. Asa does have um, you know, a storied past and like a very robust website. If if anyone goes to it, you should go to it. Uh, has about 64 pages on the blog, which is really impressive. Um, but yeah, Steph, can just give give us the quick lowdown on on the journey of ASA and and your involvement with it.

Virginia Nears Adult-Use Launch

New York’s New OCM Leadership

SPEAKER_02 17:58

Yeah, no, and and actually I think a good place to start is why people say ASA instead of ASA for Americans for Safe Access. And that's because when I founded Americans for Safe Access, I thought I was starting a campaign against Asa Hutchinson. So we were Asa versus Asa. Um Asa Hutchinson uh was leading a series of raids on the then handful of medical cannabis underground dispensaries. So um I um became a patient uh in my early 20s in San Diego. My um neurologist brought cannabis up to me, actually. Um one day he came in and actually closed the door behind him and asked me if I smoke pot. And I said no. And he said, Do you know where to get some? And I just looked at him, I was like, Am I your youngest patient? Because I thought he was trying to score weed for me. And he's like, No, no, no, no, no, it's not that. Um, yeah, this was back in 2001, right? And so he's like, no, no, we're running out of options here. Um, you obviously can't take um these anti-inflammatories, um, or you're gonna lose your kidneys. You're about six months away from dialysis. Um, and you know, if we can find something else, we should try it. And it's just a pretty scary thing to be told in your early 20s that that's um around the corner. And the the other option was to stop taking anti-inflammatories and be bedridden. Uh, so also not a good option. So I just called friends of mine that I thought might smoke pot and um asked them for some. Um, I think I started with friends of mine that listened to reggae, I know a little stereotypical, but he had some. Um, and it worked. And then, you know, of course, I was annoyed him very quickly. I had to call his dealer myself. And I didn't have any like horrible experiences with dealers, but you know, I had some embarrassing moments where you know I was like in a suit in a Walgreens parking lot crying to this young, it was probably my age, but skater guy who like wouldn't sell me weed because he thought I was a cop in a suit. Um so a friend of mine told me about um some underground, you know, they didn't say underground, but some dispensaries in the Bay Area of California. And I went up and visited them, learned more about cannabis and like my little visit there, and left with like a two-month supply and used a credit card. And you know, I I thought it was legal. I mean, it felt legal. If you use your credit card and something's branded for some reason, you're like, it must be legal. Uh, and returned back to San Diego and decided to move up to the Bay Area, not just for cannabis. I mean, it was good cannabis, but um, and then I got up there two months later. There was a raid on Ed Rosenthal on his cultivation site in Oakland. And that's when I realized I was like, oh my God, these people are committing federal civil disobediences um to provide a safe place for patients to get medicine. And while I hadn't ever been a cannabis advocate, so to speak, uh, I had done some work in criminal justice issues and knew that, you know, the main reason that the war on drugs was working was that 98% of people plead guilty because they they have no other choice to. So it was just like a perpetual system um that was, you know, paid for by lobbyists for the prison industrial complex. So to see people willing to say, like, that that law is wrong and we're gonna break it um and we're gonna do it openly, um, showed me that there was an opportunity to show people what those cannabis laws were doing. So that is sort of how ASA started. I went and kissed the rings of everybody in California and uh and thought I was starting what was going to be like a two year campaign.

unknown 21:46

Wow.

Track-And-Trace Fees And Friction

AnnaRae Grabstein 21:46

Well, and fast forward, it's almost 25 years later, and uh, you're still at it. And in prepping to catch up with you today, um, you shared a recent post. Called the 12 Epiphanies that you you posted that I looked at and really resonated a lot with me. And you guys can check them out on the Americans for Safe Access website. But a couple of these 12, it's a list of a bunch of epiphanies that you've had staff, I guess. And and the first one is that a majority of people in cannabis are new, five to eight years tops. And that in some ways in the cannabis industry, when someone is at five or eight years, we're like, oh wow, you've you've been around for a while. Um say why this is so important and why this matters to the message and to what the work is that you're doing.

Guest Intro: Steph Sherer And ASA

SPEAKER_02 22:39

Yeah. So I, uh, as you'd mentioned in my intro, um, you know, I had stepped down as executive director for a period of time uh because I was doing a lot of work internationally. And it just made sense for me to spend more time um doing that uh because obviously we had to change the scheduling in the UN drug treaties to be able to advance medical cannabis here. And so I just really honed in on that work. Um, but coming back into the US, um, what I found amongst the medical cannabis advocates I knew, they were just beat down, right? They felt like they'd been pushed aside by adult use. I was trying to like get people rallied up. Um, and you know, I felt like I was doing like divorce counseling. Like people felt like they had been, you know, they'd been used, they'd been left. Um, I was like, look, you know, your husband is banging your 21 and older secretary. He's not coming back. And I was not really that. Um, but it was really, you know, people were really um, because it was a lot of work. It was a lot of work to get us to this point, right? Um, but I also felt like nobody was talking about medical cannabis, right? And so, you know, I actually had worked with HHS and FDA on the findings for the rescheduling petition. And when, you know, HHS HHS came out and said there's accepted medical use of cannabis, that was something we'd been working on for 20 years. And the only news about it was about Biden, it being a political like ploy of Biden, or that it was, you know, businesses were going to get tax deductions. And nobody was talking about patients. And I, and so it felt really demeaning, honestly, after like all the work that we had put in to make that moment in time happen. Um, and so I felt myself feeling like I had to defend medical, like almost being like defensive about medical cannabis moving forward. And then what I realized, I kind of stepped back. The organizer of me came out. I started just like, you know, people that were liking things I was posting, I reached out to them. I was like, hey, I noticed you like me. Do you want to talk? Um, and just started meeting people, right? Uh, more people involved and realized that they had no idea that we were working towards a national medical cannabis program. I they they didn't know that for medical cannabis, the state programs that we created were triage to get patients off the battlefield that were on drugs, while we dealt with you know items that DEA and HHS had brought up of why we couldn't have a national medical cannabis program, like creating product safety protocols for the supply chain and changing the um uh the scheduling of cannabis in the international drug treaties. So when I realized, like, oh, like people aren't against me, they just don't, they just haven't heard this, right? It's not like it's it's it's like it's a bad idea. It's not like people have decided they don't like medical cannabis. Um, that really, you know, a lot of people, especially on the business side, their first entree into this community might be MJ Biz. That like there aren't patient advocates in that conference. Like the last time they invited me to speak there, um, Ralph Nader actually was the headliner and quoted me about product safety. Um, and I never got invited back. Um, but you know, they have like the advocacy day, like the day before anyone gets there. And so, you know, no one there is talking about a national medical cannabis program. So it makes sense. So to me, that's as an organizer, if there's a problem I can fix, right, that I can keep going. I'm not, I'm not a martyr, right? And if people, if there's a consensus that the United States does not want medical cannabis, then I'm sure I could find um something else to do. Um, but that's not the case. Like there, you know, there's that support is there, and it just means rolling up your sleeve and doing old school organizing, talking to people, uh, speaking um on podcasts and speaking at events. And um, and also, you know, I started reaching out to a lot of um event organizers, um, instead of being like, everybody hates medical cannabis, and just saying, hey, I noticed you haven't brought up patients in a long time. And every time people are like, Oh, oh yeah, do you want to talk about patients? Right? It's not, and again, it's just um I tell people about medical cannabis advocacy. If you just say the word patient in most cannabis rooms, people are like, oh, right, yeah. So that's why that's what makes me hopeful, right? There's somewhere, there's somewhere to go with that. It's not it's not a consensus that we're done with medical.

Ben Larson 27:15

Yeah, yeah. It's a really important conversation. You know, uh, we were at uh the Society for Cannabis Clinicians event in Colorado uh just a few months back, and there's so many passionate, knowledgeable folks like identifying the the this gap. And you mentioned when we when HHS came out under the Biden administration, like the that moment, and here we are now under a Trump administration, still having a similar conversation, and then obviously we all know about the executive order uh that was at the end of last year, and I guess now we're all waiting. We're in this like waiting game. The FDA had a deadline of doing something, of course they didn't do it. Uh has the conversation progressed since that moment? Like, are we closer? Are are we actually anticipating seeing something? And is it is it actually gonna be beneficial for patients? You know, that that's the big question. Everyone's pontificating on what they think schedule three means, whether it's for removing the 280 E tax implication or if if it's actually going to create the medical program we all look for.

Origin Story And Early Medical Access

Building ASA Against Federal Raids

SPEAKER_02 28:22

Yeah, I think that the key thing to what you said is waiting, and no one should be waiting. Like that's the problem, right? Like, like medical cannabis didn't just happen. These laws never did happen, right? The difference, I think, of how we got here was, you know, the the people that I worked with early on when I started Americans for Safe Access, we weren't just calling, you know, the the DEA denial for rescheduling a propaganda document. We actually read it and it said, it said that there's not a, you know, there's no product safety protocols for the supply chain. So instead of pontificating about when the federal government was going to do that, we partnered with the American Herbal Products Association and the American Herbal Pharmacopedia, and we created it. And that allowed us to create state state programs. Um, instead of you know pontificating or waiting for WHO to get around to doing the critical review that they were supposed to do, uh, we wrote our own, actually, um, and uh used that to lobby um the International Narcotics Control Board and got them to pass uh a resolution asking WHO to weigh in. And we organized the Committee on Narcotic Drugs at the UN to call on WHO for one. So I think that I think that the challenge right now is that people think that policy is happening to them. And the only reason that is is because they're not actually engaging. And engaging, by the way, is not a fight on social media, right? There's a huge disconnect between what is being discussed in social media and what's actually happening in DC. Right. And and the same is true of what you guys were talking about before about what's gonna happen with hemp. I think that what I mean, the conversation here in DC about that is that it's closed. Like there was a problem, they fixed it next, right? And the conversation around um, you know, the executive order is that, you know, Trump just told a lot of other people to do things, right? So um it didn't, it didn't, I mean, it's it's a it should be an exciting time when when a president um mentions medical cannabis, obviously, and signs an executive order. Um, but there's a lot of you know, devil in the details there, right? The rescheduling component, he just told the attorney general to pick it back up for uh making sure there's access to um cannabinoid products. Um he told his staff to go work with Congress because the president actually cannot reschedule cannabis on his own. Um, and you know, as far as and actually the a lot of the third um request came from a lot of our language, you know, for HHS to look at a real-world evidence approach to access for cannabis products, um, can only move forward if there's funding in the HHS appropriations. So it's exciting, but I have to say it what I'm most nervous about, um, and it's I I guess I shouldn't be nervous that it that it might happen because it is happening, is that people think that it's it's completed, right? Just like you said, like people are waiting, and so it must be over. And um, and I I think you remember this. Um I don't know, Ben, if if you were around when Obama was um was first elected, but when uh his attorney general held a press, you know, I don't think he held a press conference, he was asked a question at a press conference about cannabis, um, and he said that he was going to stop the raids, he was gonna stop the interference. Uh, from that moment, um, which was 2009 um until 2014, we were unable to get Congress to do anything. So because they thought that the Obama administration had taken care of everything, right? That they that that through his memos, they didn't need to introduce and pass the CJS amendment to stop the raids. And so there were actually more raids by like, I don't know, like a hundred times under Obama than the other two presidents. And and we couldn't get anyone to listen to us. They're like, no, he took care of it, right? And so what happened was with a lot of those raids, people were like, oh, well, they must be doing something wrong. I was like, they're not doing anything more wrong than what these people were doing, right? And so, and I also think that's my fear, you know, um, around schedule three, right? Because schedule three doesn't do anything, right?

AnnaRae Grabstein 32:57

To to dive into that a little more, and and I'm with you, schedule three, I'm I'm not really sure what it does so much. One thing that happened though in the executive order was also the the directive to create um access via Medicare um for some CBD full spectrum medicines. And I'm wondering what you think about this, because you know, I'm starting to actually see some progress happen. There's being discussion about what this program might look like, but it really is uh on the back of a of kind of a of a hemp and CBD space as opposed to a true medical cannabis program. And um I'm wondering if you think that this helps or hurts. Like really, do we believe that this program is even going to move forward? It does seem to actually have some legs, but maybe within the context of that, if you could speak to that program specifically and also help us understand your vision for what a national medical cannabis program would look like.

The “12 Epiphanies” And Lost Focus On Patients

SPEAKER_02 34:08

Okay, so there's nothing in the executive order that actually talks about that program. Um it was actually something that Dr. Oz said um at the event. There um in the proposed rulemaking for CMS for a certain program, there was a proposed rule that um this is how all cannabis policy at the federal level works, um, but it said it it didn't prohibit um patients who are terminally ill from deducting um products that were legal at the state level or the federal level from their health care costs. Right. So it was a proposed rule that's this that is a very small amount of people. And so um I was hoping that if someone um that I work with was actually uh in the room with Dr. Oz today, and he didn't mention it at all. But CMS is is you know, they're they're referring to it, but there's no mandate for them to do anything, it's not in the executive order, and what they could do, it has to be appropriated, right? I'll just say so um so it's it's a great talking point.

AnnaRae Grabstein 35:16

Is what that is meaning funded is when you say, Yeah, sorry, sorry.

Organizing Over Waiting: How Progress Happens

SPEAKER_02 35:19

Okay, just been I've been in DC all uh like for a couple months. So dumb words, like appropriate. Um, but yes, um, so it and we tried to get at the last minute um in January, you know, HHS's budget was part of the continuing resolution. Um, and we tried to get an amendment added that would fund anything in HHS for the executive order, and it it was a no-go. So the other challenge that I I think a lot of people don't see, because why would you from uh when you're not in DC, is that there's actually a huge backlash against cannabis that has been that actually really the announcement of Schedule Three um and the sort of false narrative that it was a ploy by Biden to get re-elected, um, that it somehow that it was he was cannabis was going to be rescheduled before the election. I think you guys all remember those fun rumors um that actually created an opportunity for organizations like Sam to uh to make it a partisan issue again and really drive a wedge um and and you know organize and mobilize um some of the you know the last of the anti-anti-cannabis people. And in election 2024, somehow all of those people got into leadership. So um literally people who signed the letters again, you know, against Attorney General Garland for asking for schedule three, and then just signed letters to Trump asking him not to reschedule, um, they're all in charge. So it doesn't matter if it's a majority, they they decide what is on the floor. So that that's frightening. And that's why that's why the um hemp revisions happen through the ag appropriations process, is because Harris, um, who's very anti-cannabis, is the chair there. So um, but it's but it's exciting because I think that um you know, you do have the head of CMS talking about this, right? This conversation that's on people's radars, and that's really what we need, right? We really need um, you know, for people to at least be asking the questions, and then we can explain why it doesn't work so we can tell them how it will work, right? And so um the national medical cannabis program that we've been advocating for, it's evolved a little bit over the years, but it basically would create an office of medical cannabis and cannabinoid control in HHS, not in FDA. And that's why I like just if I get a minute, we'll talk about FDA, but we just need to keep cannabis out of FDA until it's a fine finished product. And um, and maybe not even then, but they can they can look at the labels, but we don't want them regulating it. Um and it would create a new schedule for cannabis, a schedule six. So what's interesting is after we rescheduled cannabis um at the UN level, the International Narcotics Control Board issued basically instructions on how member states, which that's UN speak for countries, that were signatories um to the treaties, how they could stay in line with the treaties and still have a medical cannabis program. And it includes designating an agency um for that program. And so all of the, you know, I've worked in several countries and helping them get their national medical cannabis uh programs up and running. And when the conversation came up about the scheduling of cannabis, most places said, Well, why do we, why do you, why do we care about it? I was like, we don't want people getting arrested. And they're like, Yeah, we're not the United States. Like we don't, we don't have a drug war here like you guys. Um, and so it's a very schedule six is a very US specific need. Um, but the reality is is that cannabis doesn't fit into any of the schedules. Um, it is a complex botanical medicine. And you know, it is by if you just deschedule it, which I'll just tell you the political will for there for that is is maybe a decade away in DC right now, um, unless people start getting more politically active. Um but the you know, the descheduling it also doesn't recognize its medical use. And so that is important because of the American Disabilities Act and the Fair Housing Act, right? Like until until that is a medicine, people can kick us out of our homes for using our medicine, they can uh fire us, they can take our kids away, um, they can take our cars away, our driver's license away. So, you know, and they can society doesn't have to accommodate us. Uh and so it's it's very important. So that's why, you know, honestly, I felt like when it didn't matter to me what schedule HHS said, as long as it wasn't schedule one and we had that phrase currently accepted medical use, that changed everything. Right. And in our strategic planning, which, you know, honestly, we've been working off the same strategic plan for 24 years and it's been working, it's just things take a lot longer than a 25-year-old hopes. Um, but the um, you know, the recognition that cannabis has medical, I don't know how if if it impacted everyone this way, but I had people calling me crying. I was crying, like to be told that your medication, like the thing that is keeping you from being bedridden and actually living a life. If they recognize that it's a medicine, I mean, like I wanted to call like every rude uncle of mine or whatever, you know, it's you know, everyone that um you has treated you like a like a second-class citizen. I mean, it it's it's it's life-changing, right? But from a political side, it also should mean okay, we have the consensus there, then let's figure out how to get that to patients. And right now, there isn't a pathway at the FDA for complex botanical medicine to uh to be recognized and brought to market. And that's why we need the Office of Medical Cannabis.

Schedule Three, Executive Order, And Reality

Ben Larson 41:31

So So can I can I ask a quick just political strategy question? Of course, of course. You know, and it kind of relates to when you know Obama made this declaration and then the raids increase, right? Does actually a win, uh a win, so to speak, of getting it to schedule three, does that like neuter the the you know political will to then introduce a schedule six? Like, or like should we go from I I've heard this conversation before in in relation to descheduling. It's like, oh, if we give up and we we give schedule three, then we're never gonna get descheduling.

SPEAKER_02 42:08

Yeah, I mean, I think I mean it's so we don't have much control over what's gonna happen for in the DOJ. I'll just say that, right? Like the um what we have to hope, like honestly, what I was nervous about was um the new DOJ kicking the findings back to HHS and saying that they couldn't use that approach to Camus or currently accepted medical use, right? So it doesn't matter what we think. Like there's not an like um, I mean, you can try to influence um DEA and every law enforcement agency in the United States. Um, and so I don't see much, there's not much to do there, I think, as far as like except for I guess like come up with new ways to insult people who uh who support Schedule Three. Um, but I think that what is important is for members of Congress to understand why it is not enough. Right. And so, you know, knowing how long these things take, um, if people get involved and actually call their members of Congress, um, and we actually make things, we make communication with your members of Congress so easy. Uh, we that we have like um prepared letters for you. We even tell you when we have like a new memo. So I just wrote this long memo explaining to Congress like what happened during appropriations, what the executive order means. And so you just you can just download it and send it, or you if you have a relationship, if you don't, um you can just send a pre, you know, add a little personal touch to a pre written letter. And all you have to know is your your address. If you don't know your address, I can't help you. But if you know your address, you can go into there and I know I know a few people that applies to.

Ben Larson 43:51

Yes.

Funding, Backlash, And Partisan Headwinds

SPEAKER_02 43:52

No, no, I guess me too at some level. But uh, I think though that um I don't know. I mean, I like like it's up to us, right? Like it's it's literally up to us. And for me, that's exciting, right? Because it means that this isn't happening to us. This is our society, this is our country, even if it doesn't look like the country you thought it was. But um, the one thing I'll say is that members of Congress, their job isn't to come to DC and represent the laws of the state that they're from. Their job is to represent their constituents. And if you aren't talking to them, they've got a lot of other people that are asking them, you know, to look into other legislation. I mean, the job of a Congress person, I mean, it's just like one step up from a state legislator. Like the lower, like if you get down to the being a mayor or city council, you get closer to sewage. I was thinking like, imagine how much they have to deal with, right? But um, but it's a you know, they're they're thinking about a lot of things. So if you're not asking, there's literally no reason why they would. Um, and so again, that's part of one of my epiphanies for optimism, is that um I know that you're not calling them, right? When I'm going in to talk to members of Congress, they're like, wow, stuff, that's amazing. I see what you're saying, but I'm not hearing about this, right? And so that um is cute to me that it's time to organize. And, you know, if people just for every conversation they had online about cannabis, right? Uh say for every 20 things you write about about cannabis online, you actually talk to somebody like in the line at the grocery store. Uh, we might actually get somewhere. But um, and it's hard, like it's hard, which is why we train so many people. Our whole like I that's part of why I've trained so many people is that it's not natural to to talk to your members of Congress. Not everyone does it. Um, and so I wanna I wanna help you do that.

AnnaRae Grabstein 45:56

Steph, I wanna, I want to talk about the tension between medical cannabis and the cannabis industry. And uh, you know, the cannabis industry has sort of evolved from first state level medical programs in almost every instance. I don't know if there's any state that just went straight to adult use. And um often the medical programs that states have implemented uh before they transition to adult use have been very restrictive and and have created large obstacles for access and participation. Um, everything from just how someone might get a prescription or a recommendation to be able to participate in those programs to the form factors that can exist or who the players are that can create those products. So they it certainly hasn't been um perfect by any means. And then uh broadly, once once states have transitioned to adult youth, from my perspective, in some ways, it it could almost be construed as as better for medical patients, in so much as that there's much broader access. Now all you need is an ID. You don't need to jump through these ho, ho, like hoops to talk to a doctor or to maybe have a certain condition. Um, and so on that level, broader access is good for patients. And at the same time, dispensaries uh have not seen products that are very specifically created for medical patients have the same type of sell-through and success in the stores as products that are marketed more towards recreation. And I just want to base this head on. I love it.

SPEAKER_02 47:44

Thank you for yeah.

AnnaRae Grabstein 47:45

Yeah, I think that access is access in some ways, and that's why we have been so optimistic and hopeful for the way that we've seen hemp proliferate in retail, especially like the the products that, at least in my opinion or Ben's opinion, are safer. Um, that that it's it's been a great thing to be able to have people that want to access cannabinoids easily be able to grab them at at a grocery store. Like what a thing.

Vision: Office Of Medical Cannabis And Schedule Six

Ben Larson 48:12

What what a dream. And and just to like kind of capitalize on that, I've been engaging online and there's been a lot of friction about against fighting for hemp beverages in particular, because you now have people uh representing the hemp community being like, don't leave the patients behind. And I'm like, Whoa, like I'm like living on two planes right now where you have like medical and adult use cannabis fighting against like the proliferation of hemp because you know it's it's breaking the system or whatever. Uh, and then now you have hemp accusing hemp beverage of blocking access to patients because they're supportive of like pathways for a singular form factor. So not to throw too much at you, but it's just become a very complicated conversation.

SPEAKER_02 49:01

And to your point, that access, really. You know, you you you um this is this is my breakfast conversation every day. So no.

Ben Larson 49:10

Um congratulations.

Why FDA Isn’t The Right Home

Medical Recognition And Patient Protections

SPEAKER_02 49:12

That's right, exactly. Those are great points, and I think that what um the way that I answer that is that while it may look like um access is easier, that is true for some patients, absolutely. Um, but you know, the reality of the adult use market for patients and for um uh for the products that they want is that, you know, let's face it, a interstate approach to business, right, is not is not efficient, it's not effective. And especially if you're talking about standardizing a product for patients, right? So I say to members of Congress all the time is imagine if at the beginning of the pandemic, if Congress would have turned to um Pfizer and asked them to create a vaccine for Rhode Island. There's no way they're doing it, right? And so what what actually what we actually see at the state level is that again, these programs were meant to be triage. And I actually don't like I don't want to get my medicine from those programs. Like most people don't most people want their cannabis, their medicines integrated into their healthcare, right? They want to be able to have it covered by insurance. They want it to be not something that they that necessarily is their identity. Just like, you know, most patients don't think about themselves as being a patient unless there's a doctor in the room, right? That's a word that people use about us all the time. Like we're actually, you know, that's not an identity component. Well, neither is using cannabis is part of your identity for most patients, right? It is a it is a treatment that they're that's working for them. Um, and so in the states with adult use, um, what we've seen is um actually the return of more stigma, right? Because there isn't a differentiation between someone using it medically and someone using it recreationally. And what I mean by stigma is like, I want to work here, but I this is my medicine, right? And be like, oh yeah, right. Um uh but we also um, you know, see higher tax uh taxes for those products, right? Uh we see um, and look, the businesses that there's a lot of businesses that want to be medical, that that's what they want to do. They want to serve patients, but there's a reality of being in that market, right? And they just want to pay payroll. And I get it. As someone who's has to pay payroll, it is stressful. And so, of course, you're not gonna say, no, I'm not gonna serve more people. And so they get a dual license. And the reality is there's only so much shelf space. That's the reality. And so, you know, people, I psychology people avoid me or they're like, oh, I was carrying my my medical products. Um but to me, that is a symptom of the fact that it's time to move on, right? And so, yes, someone might use. I think a lot of people, um this I I know pharma likes to say that this doesn't happen, but a lot of people try somebody else's medicine and then they go talk to their doctor about it. Let's be honest, right? Um, I think, you know, that that is something we've seen in um uh in the adult use space. And the same thing with hemp. Like, yes, it is very exciting that patients had access to cannabinoid treatments. What was the challenge and really hard was what the hell was in those products, right? And as a patient advocate, I think the worst thing that can happen, uh, well, not the worst thing, um, something I see commonly happen that I think is very bad, um, is that is when a patient, a new patient, takes a product and has an adverse event that was either because the dosage was too high, um, the you know, the wrapper wasn't correct of what was in there, or there was a contaminant or adulterant. And, you know, yeah, they don't call a news conference, they just never use medical cannabis again. And so for someone who has a chronic disease, who, like myself, who cannot tolerate anti-inflammatories, do you know what it would mean to my life if I would have, if my first experience with cannabis, right, would have been one that I got hive, which happened to me once from a gummy, or um, or I like passed out, or I thought I was, you know, the second time I took it, I got really intoxicated at work and got fired. Yeah, I'm never using cannabis again. So I think I don't think we need versus versus, right? Like have adult use. I'm not, I'm not judging you, right? I actually think that like we're moving on. So I think that what what maybe the better conversation is yes, this all comes from one plant. Yes, that is totally true. And when we look at um product safety protocols along the supply chain, storage issues, all of those are gonna be the same for this plant. Like how how it gets to humans, right? All of that is gonna be the same. But what is in those products, how it gets to people, is gonna be totally different. And so, you know, I actually think it's like the um what is that paper that's came out, the one plant strategy or whatever. I think what I most appreciated, they interviewed me and I was like, I don't agree with this context because I don't think descheduling is happening anytime soon, right? But so through my conversations with them, you know, they left medical out of there, right? Which is great. You know, like, yes, that is what should happen with adult use, right? And um, if you want to call them wellness products, but um, you know, for things that are like insomnia is a medical condition, it's not a wellness issue. And if somebody needs to take a standardized medicine every night to sleep, right, there's ways that we can get that to people. And, you know, I get it. I'm 24 years in, right? Like I know this is a heavy lift. And honestly, the controlled substance act might have been the easy part. Um, because now what we have to do is redefine medicine. But this is actually part of a global movement. This is not just in the United States, and it's not just about cannabis, right? That, you know, if you look at the medical conditions that are plaguing our country, right? 90% of our um 4 trillion healthcare debt is based on chronic diseases uh and mental health issues. And for most of those chronic diseases, we don't know, not only do we not have a way to treat them, we actually don't know what they are, right? So having a pharmaceutical company develop a single-target drug when they don't know what is causing ALS, when they don't know what is causing um MS, they don't know why someone has Crohn's disease, it's pretty challenging. And so a better approach would be actually looking at something that's working and figuring out how to safely get it to that person and study study that as you go, which is what real-world evidence medicine is based on.

AnnaRae Grabstein 56:14

Quickly, what what do you think is working for medical cannabis patients in terms of form factors? What counts as appropriate within a medical context?

Strategy: Congress, Calls, And Memos

SPEAKER_02 56:25

Whatever they need. Whatever they need. And then it and then it that what they need is accurately labeled. It has been tested for microbials, for heavy metals, um, and they can get it the next time they need it. That's medical. Medical is that I don't want, I mean, you you don't go to your pharmacy and be a new strain. If once you're like, want to try this try these pills on your way to work. Like that, um, and so a scenario I often talk about is, you know, no matter how well informed a doctor is or a medical professional is, um, the conversation that they're having with their patient about cannabis is is out of touch, right? Because whatever they're learning, if they are learning anything, right, about cannabinoids, the patient isn't gonna find that when they walk into a retail shop. They're gonna encounter a bud tender who is probably pushing a high, like, you know, it's a it's like a bartender. Like, what what do we have too much in stock? You get it, you get a bonus if you sell more of these. So a patient who like came in with a list, um, gets told by you know someone at the store, oh, you don't know, she doesn't know what she's talking about. The doctor didn't tell, doesn't know what they're talking about, you need this, and then they leave and have an adverse event. That's that's a loss for not just a customer, if you're looking at business sense, that's a loss for the quality of life of that human. Right. And so I think that um, you know, I'm hearing, you know, some people that are working on regulations trying to define medicine, and that's not up to that's not up to uh regulators. Um, the fact that we what we have at the state level, it is compassionate use, which literally means better than nothing. Right? There is no like and the the whole addition of the conditions or whatever, all of that was political, right? All of it, every set every minute of it was. And what we know is that that didn't work at the state level for medical cannabis, and it can't work, it's not gonna work that way at the at the federal level. And we know from you know, a few drugs, cannabinoid-based drugs that have made it through the FDA approval process, that single compound extractions are just not, they're not where it's at with cannabis, right? There's there's something else there. But there is a the future of medicine is going to be about dealing with these chronic diseases that are not being treated with single-target drugs. And there is not a pipeline of pharmaceuticals that are waiting to come in.

unknown 59:06

Yeah.

AnnaRae Grabstein 59:07

Steph, we we talk about business usually on this podcast. And I think that, but we also talk a lot about policy. And I think you've really added to the complexity and some breadth to help people understand how many more kind of perspectives there are at the table here. So really grateful for that. Um, it is time for our last call. So uh this is your opportunity to leave a final message with our listeners, advice, call to action, closing the thoughts. What's your last call?

Adult-Use Access Vs True Medical Needs

SPEAKER_02 59:40

So last call means something else to a lot of people, but in this context, um you know I would say get involved and um don't wait. If you're using the word I'm waiting to see what happens with cannabis policy, you've already lost uh because it's happening right now. Um it's happening, it's there's not going to be necessarily a big bill with fireworks when we win. Um, we're winning and losing every day. And that's happening because uh elected officials are educated on what we want going forward. And so, you know, stop stop acting out of what you hope will happen or what you maybe your business hopes will happen and really look at what's happening, right? If you care about patients getting um losing access because of the hemp bill, right, which is going to happen at the hemp, the loopholes closing November 11th, then have your states pass laws to incentivize the regulated cannabis businesses to make it. Let's let's make sure we don't lose that access. And if you want elected officials that are going to come to DC and fight for medical cannabis, I encourage you to check out the Compassionate Candidate campaign. Uh, we're asking people running for federal office to sign a pledge uh saying that when they get to DC, that they will introduce uh comprehensive medical cannabis legislation and fight for it. And uh we already have two pretty high-profile candidates that have signed on. I give you all the tools you need to do it, including like a draft letter, um, give you ways to say hi. No, escape. Um, but um, but I also say, you know, keep educating yourself. And um, I want to thank both of you for creating this space for people to have this conversation and keep uh expanding sort of the possibilities. Um, but just make sure that you're not pushing facts uh to uh to prove your point, right? Or to prove where you want things to go because it's happening like right now, every day, there are decisions that are queuing up what's gonna happen to the future of medical cannabis. And as medical cannabis goes, so do the rest of these other markets. So thank you all. Get involved. I'll help you.

Ben Larson 1:01:51

Steph Scherer, Americans for Safe Access. Thank you so much for spending the last hour with us. I feel like we could talk all day. Uh, I'm excited to kind of continue to follow what you're doing and support support your work. So thank you. Thank you for for everything you do. All right. What do you think, folks? Thank you so much for continuing to support us, for engaging. Special shout out to Shannon Howell from from Oregon, uh patient and health advocate, and also Holly Ling, uh, a medical cannabis consulting pharmacist out of Pennsylvania, commenting live as we go. Uh, we love the engagement, uh, we love the likes, the shares, the reviews on Apple, iTunes, and Spotify, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Thank you to our teams at Virtosa and Wolfmeyer. Obviously, the support that you guys give us uh allows us to do this every week. So thank you. And of course, our producer, Eric Rossetti. Um, you're the best. All right, folks. Uh, I think that's it for this week. So, as always, stay curious, stay informed, and most importantly, keep your spirits high. Until next time, that's the show.