SPEAKER_01: 0:00

I think that's really important for people to kind of feel like they know a scientist, that they know somebody educated and advocating for this side of the plant. Um, because typically we don't usually have access to scientists in that way. Um, so I was kind of hoping to, you know, take down the curtain and start these difficult conversations, talk about research we have, talk about research that we don't have and why we don't have it, and um, you know, go from there and just answer people's questions and start kind of a community-based conversation around the science of the plant.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00

I'm Ben Larson, and not with me is Anna Ray Grabstein. Anna Ray is on another island somewhere, I believe called Kauai. Uh, but she is off the grid and doesn't have power, so it's you just got me today. Sorry, not sorry. Anywho, uh, it's Tuesday, February 17th, and we got a great show for you today. We have Dr. Riley Kirk on. We're gonna nerd out on the plant and talk about all things cannabinoids, endocannabinoid system, writing books, research, all that kind of fun, nerdy stuff. So I don't have any news. So I think we're just gonna jump right into it. Let me bring on the good doctor. So, Dr. Riley Kirk is a cannabis scientist and educator specializing in plant chemistry and real world real-world consumer research. She is the co-founder of the nonprofit network of applied pharmacognosy. I'm gonna check the pronunciation on that when she comes on, which advances community-driven cannabis science and education. Dr. Kirk teaches cannabis as medicine at Vermont State University and is the author of Reefer Wellness. She also hosts the Bioactive Podcast, where she explores cannabis chemistry, policy, and plant-based medicine with leading experts in the field. Dr. Riley Kirk. Welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_01: 2:20

Hey, thanks for having me on, Ben. I'm excited to be here.

SPEAKER_00: 2:23

Yeah, it's so good to see you. It's been a while. It's been a while. What's uh what's happening in the cannabis world on on the East Coast? I think you're five hours ahead of me, so that's almost a half a day.

SPEAKER_01: 2:34

Yeah, there's a lot happening on the East Coast. Um, I think we have a little bit more of an immature market here. So we have new things kind of happening and opening up all of the time. Um, we have some positive things happening and some potentially negative things. You might have heard that uh Maine and Massachusetts were voting to remove their adult use market and switch to just uh medical again. Um so that's kind of been uh a hot topic around here. And I don't think it's getting that much traction. I think it's more of uh just the principle that some people wanted it to um kind of go back in time, but um, that's kind of a hot topic as far as research. Um, we're trying to be leaders uh on the East Coast as far as research goes. A lot of our research is out of Massachusetts, which is kind of like the biotech hub of uh the United States or one of them. Uh so that's been that's been really fun to be part of as well.

SPEAKER_00: 3:28

So we have a we have a little ways to go to fully convert from reefer madness to to reefer wellness, is we have a long way to go.

SPEAKER_01: 3:37

Before we start a recording, we talked about the New York Times for just a minute. Um and they just keep publishing hit pieces on cannabis. It's like they're not even trying to be neutral about it. It is so negative towards the plant. And it's like, why aren't you publishing this about any of the actual harmful things that people are putting into their body? It's absolutely ridiculous.

SPEAKER_00: 3:59

It it is pretty wild. For for a publication that the the right-leaning politicians love to like can on for being a liberal publication, there's they're just not with it on cannabis. But um let's start at the beginning. Like, how how did this all become for you? You're you're a young doctor, and I don't know. I I for many years now, like you've popped up, you've been leveraging social media in like interesting ways where you know cannabis nerds had it hadn't previously really gone before. Um, and it it was just so refreshing. And so how did this come to be? Like, how did the Dr. Riley Kirk come to be?

SPEAKER_01: 4:40

Yeah, um, and just so people know, I'm not a medical doctor. I have a PhD, but anything I say is not medical advice, it's just fun science. Um, but essentially I got my PhD in natural products, also called pharmacognosy. You said it correctly in the introduction. So thank you for that. Yeah, so pharmacognosy is essentially the the study of nature and how we can use it as drugs. So most of our natural drug-like compounds come from plants, but we also study bacteria, fungi, cyanobacteria, um, algae, all of these different sources of medicine. So that's what my PhD is in. Um, that's what I studied for a long time. And essentially I started to get into social media during COVID because for the first time I couldn't be in a lab and I was just at home twiddling my thumbs, and I was like, I need to like talk to people, I need to do something. Um, so TikTok started to really blow up during COVID. And I said, you know what? I'm gonna give it a try. I'm gonna set up my phone and I'm just gonna start talking about things that I find really interesting, which is cannabis science and pharmacology and chemistry, like the really, really nerdy end end of things because I had never seen content like that before on social media. And I thought, you know, I find this fascinating. Maybe other people will as well.

SPEAKER_02: 5:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 6:00

So started posting videos, and I mean, the first just one, two, three, four, five, they were all just going crazy, like hitting millions and millions of views, and my channel is just like just immediately off the bat. Immediately. And I mean, this is before like we had crazy censorship about cannabis, like it was kind of just the Wild West. Like you could actually post whatever you wanted to, and it would reach people. It was awesome. Um, so that's kind of where it started. And I realized that there was kind of this niche here that I was filling, like there was nowhere to really educate people about all the science we had about cannabis and how it works in the body, and how we can actually use that information as harm reduction too, to encourage people that there is more than just THC, that we actually know a ton about this plant and how it works in the body. It's not just this guessing game or like we we have been inhibited with Schedule One, but we still have 40,000 publications on cannabis and the ECS. So it's not like we're in the dark ages completely. So I've kind of turned into this liaison between like the academic, really science-y world and the consumer world. And I think that's really important for people to kind of feel like they know a scientist, that they know somebody educated and advocating for this side of the plant. Um, because typically we don't usually have access to scientists in that way. Um, so I was kind of hoping to, you know, take down the curtain and start these difficult conversations, talk about research we have, talk about research that we don't have and why we don't have it, and um, you know, go from there and just answer people's questions and and start kind of a community-based conversation around the science of the plant.

SPEAKER_00: 7:43

It's pretty wild that it gained such an audience so quickly. And, you know, I'm probably aged out of this, so I I don't know much about TikTok. I don't want to turn this into a TikTok strategy uh video, but I'm curious as to like what kind of visibility did you have into that audience? Like who were those millions of people that that were following you? Like, are you are there do you understand that they were actually consumers and less so like operators in the space? And then has it started to be censored? Uh have you had to change course uh with your content?

SPEAKER_01: 8:19

Yeah, so um I would say by audience, I've realized that TikTok is much more just general consumers, people who love the plant, love consuming the plant. Whereas Instagram is much more like the industry. Like you're you're talking to the cannabis industry when you make videos on Instagram. So they're like completely different audiences and videos react very differently or get different reactions on different platforms. But to your question about censorship, it has drastically changed. I mentioned TikTok was kind of the Wild West in 2020. Um, and that lasted for probably a year. And then all of a sudden, like there was so much cannabis content that you could tell something just like switched in the algorithm. And all of a sudden, like a video that used to get, you know, 200,000 views would get like 2,000 views. And you're like, is it me or is it the algorithm? So um I for a while tried to censor myself. I tried to say other words other than cannabis and THC and CBD. But as an educator, it really takes away from the quality of your education if you have to like censor and bleep out words when you're already talking about a really complicated topic and now you're using like different words. And it's so one day I was just like, I'm not gonna say these words. I'm just gonna say what I say. If it does well, that's great. If it doesn't do well, that's fine. I'd rather just have like the content that I want out there. And um, some of it still does really well. Like I have a video I posted yesterday that has over 200,000 views. And I think it's if we stay in the realm of education, I find that videos can still reach new audiences. It's more of the content of like, I'm trying 10 different joints today and we're gonna see how high I can get. And that type of content, I think the algorithm knows is like, that's not educational. Like, I wouldn't say it's harmful, but it's definitely, you know, maybe we shouldn't be showing young kids or teenagers that type of content. But the the truly educational stuff, I find you still do have the ability for those videos to pop off.

SPEAKER_00: 10:25

Yeah, yeah. Well, I do want to dive into some of that education because and I'm I'm gonna try to not get us banned by the algorithm, but I am in Hawaii and I've been uh sampling the local flora and it's been quite enjoyable, and it's it's almost brought back to this love of the plant that's been slightly suppressed as I kind of go through my normal days. Um and it's because like I didn't go into dispensary, yeah. Boo, shame on me. But um I don't know, like we didn't we didn't purchase the flower knowing like the TAC percentages, and uh each experience was slightly different until we got to this like other strain yesterday that really like provided a very different experience and it was very happy and giggly. It was like this something that's like elusive to me, is like how do I know how to nail that every time? Maybe that would cause me to smoke too much weed. I don't know, but um I want to dive into how we move beyond THC because like we talk about this a lot, especially uh in the industry, is like we want to go back to the nuance to take it away from like these heavy THC strains. But there's also the human side, the body side of like how it is different for each one of us, and also potentially different for us alone, like from you know, time to time. And so we'll start there. Where do you see it from your perspective on where we're at on this journey like back to the the full plant, back you know, kind of away from THC? Like, what do people need to hear to like kind of keep that progression moving?

SPEAKER_01: 12:06

Yeah, it's it's a great question. And I recently saw an article that was saying that vape carts were now like overtaking flour as the top um seller on the market, and that made me really sad, to be completely honest. Um, I always want to see flour when I always want to use outdoor cannabis if I can. Um, you know, not all outdoors equal, but we'll talk about that later, maybe. Um, but I think it's really difficult for consumers not to shop by just THC. Um, if you go to a dispensary and you're looking at the menu, you usually have strain name and THC percentage to go off of. You know, there's not a ton of other information available. So I guess you have price too, right? So you're either shopping by price, THC percentage, or if you have some sort of uh affinity towards a certain variety. But, you know, we're not giving a lot of consumers the tools to choose something else. And I'm very curious with schedule three um changing, cannabis moving to schedule three, along with the hemp ban, which might be happening as well. That's kind of iffy. But I'm wondering if there's less hemp products available online, if we're gonna see more dispensaries having hemp products available to people or having more balanced varieties with more CBD and more CBG available. Because I think one of the limitations for dispensaries is why would they sell a CBD product or even like a low-dose THC, mostly CBD product, if you can also buy that online and not get taxed 24%? You know, it that makes a lot of sense to me why they haven't been doing it that. And you always hear when you talk to these dispensaries and you're like, why don't you have one-to-ones, like type two cannabis? Why don't you have more balanced products? And they just say, like, the demand isn't there, like it's not moving fast enough, not enough people are asking for it. So I think as people become more educated to step away from just THC and start looking or asking for products that are more balanced, hopefully we can create that demand. And hopefully then dispensaries will want to sell those products. And I think we can also listen to the science here because there's been some really interesting studies that show when CBD and THC are present together, that people actually feel a little bit more elevated compared to just THC present.

SPEAKER_00: 14:25

So we have kind of a Which is why that's kind of wild because people generally believe that CBD takes away from the intensity of the high or creates a more balanced effect, right?

SPEAKER_01: 14:36

I think it is a more balanced effect. And I I don't necessarily think it like takes away from the high. I think it takes away from like the really intense feeling of the high, like that anxiety buildup and some of those potentially negative things we feel when we get to the borderline too high. I think CBD can help kind of balance out that feeling rather than just having THC there that has kind of a slightly different feeling. But I think if more people actually tried smoking CBD and THC together, that would change their minds. Um, and I mean, to your point too, of what you're smoking in Hawaii, um, you know, that is a much more balanced variety. We were talking about how it's a an outdoor-grown like um flower. And that is a fully different feeling than you get from dispensary cannabis, unfortunately. Um, you know, there are definitely some great growers that are selling in dispensaries, but unfortunately, if you're growing just for super, super high THC, you're typically gonna not get that like expansive, beautiful feeling that you get from outdoor-grown cannabis that isn't being grown just for THC. It's being grown in the environment to be resilient against all of these things that are around us. It's growing like a true plant. So when the plant's more uh robust and resilient and diverse, I think that creates that same experience inside of us. And that's a feeling that a lot of people are looking for, but we just don't have the terminology to ask for that type of product. Um, so it's not being uh offered in a lot of dispensaries. Sorry, keep going.

SPEAKER_00: 16:11

I can go from no no it's we'll let you keep talking. I want to talk about some of the mechanisms that do drive that experience. I mean, THC and CBD are the most obvious ones. You mentioned CBG. Like, what are some of the the cannabinoids that you're excited about or non-cannabinoids? So we obviously there's terpenes that people always talk about. There's the the flavonoids and plant material that are lesser talked about, but still probably influential of the plant experience. Um yeah, like what's the what's on the bleeding edge right now? What do people need to hear about?

SPEAKER_01: 16:47

Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of things are um really getting people interested right now. I think CBG is a great place to start as far as like stepping away from just THC and CBD because CBG or cannab gerol, there's a lot of varieties of cannabis that produce a lot of CBG. So it's something that you can get like very appreciable amounts of in your flour. And CBG is great for a daytime variety, like it really helps with the focus, feeling locked in, less anxiety. And you can either mix that with THC or find flour that's again balanced with both of them. So I think CBG is a really great starting point. Um, but I think some of the more like interesting compounds, I think CBC or cannabichromine is a really great compound, especially for people with chronic pain. It's been shown to help with pain, but be less intoxicating compared to THC. So if you still need relief from your pain, whether it be daytime or nighttime, you can supplement your body with some CBC. And interestingly, when you light CBC on fire, it turns to a different cannabinoid called CBL. So CBL is also really interesting. And that one uh combined to serotonin receptors in the brain. So there's a uh growing amount of evidence that consuming CBL or CBC that turns into CBL could be good for like anxiety disorders or things that you take SSRIs for.

unknown: 18:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 18:15

Oh, and to your point too, about like the other stuff in cannabis, I really like how some uh dispensaries are starting to classify different varieties by like their aroma profile. So, like saying that that's gassy or that's skunky or that's fruity. Like I think these terms are really great and beneficial because you're capturing kind of the nuance in flour more than just cannabinoids, more than just terpenes. Now we're talking about the other stuff. Because when you talk about that skunk aroma that everybody knows who loves cannabis, that skunk aroma is not coming from terpenes. It's coming from other things in the plant that have sulfur in them. When we talk about the really fruity aromas, if people love people love the fruity stuff right now. And that fruity aroma is coming from completely different molecules, again, not terpenes. These are the same molecules that are present in actual fruit that give fruit the smell that's present in some cannabis. Same thing with the gassy smell. That's again sulfur compounds that are not terpenes. So if we just use these words that people are already familiar with, if you say gassy and you're talking to someone who likes to smell gas at a gas station, that might be a variety that they're interested in. Their body is already kind of attracted to that. They know that from their experience. So maybe they're attracted to that kind of flower too, and that might be something that they want to try.

SPEAKER_00: 19:44

I heard that the uh that people being attracted to a certain aroma, it's tied to kind of like our our how we've evolved with plants and how like certain plants call to us because of I don't know what our body is seeking at that moment. How do how do we explain that from like a from a you know intellectual perspective? Uh, you know, like people's unique endocannabinoid systems or what they're needing at that point in time, or you know, something I've often thought about is like, do we have endocannabinoid deficiencies because we've banned this plant that our bodies were designed to interact with? Yeah. So how do you think about that from a wellness perspective?

SPEAKER_01: 20:26

Yeah, so what we talk about all the time is the nose nose. And essentially what this means is like your nose is incredibly sophisticated. We have over 400 different receptors just in our nose. So when we're smelling something, if you if you have four different jars of flour in front of you and you smell one, you smell the next, you smell the next, you smell the next, you know, one of them might kind of elicit this like, ooh, that made me feel like really good inside. Like I that reminds me of something. Like I have a really positive mental experience that's pulling me towards that variety. Whereas you might smell another one and you might be like, ooh, I I would never smoke that. I would never put that in my body. That's disgusting. But then you talk to someone else and they smell that same flower and they're like, hey, I kind of like that. I want to try that. And you're like, really? So that's kind of the personalization aspect that we're talking about here, that your nose is tied to your brain, your body, every experience you've ever had. And some people are going to be drawn towards certain flower because those receptors are in your nose are talking to your brain and saying, hey, like you should, you should gravitate towards this one. This one's speaking to us in a way. And it might also tell you what to stay away from. And you were talking about how your ECS kind of changes through the day, through your life, especially if if you're a woman, it's going to change throughout the month, throughout your hormonal cycle. So it can be really valuable because you might not want to smoke or vape or consume the same variety all the time. You know, you might want to really pick and choose based on what time of day it is. How you're feeling, your anxiety levels, all of these different things. You might want to choose different flower for different times of the day or of the month. So if we smell the flower and we say, okay, I'm smelling, say it's like a haze or a jack, something that's like really uplifting, that is actually going to tingle the top of your nose like very differently than a more sedating variety. So you might smell those uplifting varieties and it's tingly and it's bright. It's almost like smelling something like citrus and it's zingy when you smell it. And that same zing is like that's kind of a proxy of how it's going to make you feel. If it's uplifting to your nose, it's going to be uplifting to your brain too. In contrast, if you smell something that's maybe like musky or earthy or peppery or like those types of varieties, when you smell them, they're not tingling and tickling your nose like those Jackson Hayes'. They're not going to be like an astringent-y feel. They're going to hit way lower than your nose on your nose. So it's going to be more of a lower nose feel. And it's just going to kind of like be a calming smell. Kind of like if you smell lavender, it's very calming. It's not, it's not sharp. It's very rounded of a smell. And then those varieties might be better at nighttime or later in the day, or if you're already anxious, maybe you want to go towards those more like sedating, calming varieties. And you can literally smell the difference. Like if something smells that beautiful, earthy floral, like that's going to be a much more calm experience than something that literally like tingles your brain when you smell it.

SPEAKER_00: 23:34

Yeah. It's um it's you're making me want to go smell flour and smoke flour. I hope so.

SPEAKER_01: 23:44

That's the goal.

SPEAKER_00: 23:45

You have this certain affinity towards flour. You kind of made a remark about vaping earlier, although you just you referenced something positive about it just recently. Um but how do you think about cannabis consumption flour compared to other formats? And something I notice in in edibles is that people are exploring these different cannabinoid combinations and inserting terpenes or live rosins and um but that is different than combusting. You know, you aren't converting CBC to CBL and and other things. So it's like Yeah, what what are your thoughts just in regards to different pathways for the cannabis plant into the body and and how how we should be thinking about that?

SPEAKER_01: 24:31

Yeah, and I'll say um I'm a flour consumer, I'm a flower lover, I'm a hippie at heart. So like just because I love flour doesn't mean I'm saying like people should only consume flour. But um part of the reason why I love flour is one, I love growing flour too. I think you have a fully different appreciation for the plant when you see it grow and when you smell it in the morning versus at nighttime, and then you see that you know come into flour and you harvest it and you dry and cure it, and then you finally smoke it or consume it, and you're like, wow, all of the energy that I put into this plant now is making me feel like this. It's like a whole full circle moment. I think it's really beautiful. Um, but as a natural product chemist, I also love flour uh because it presents what I like to call the natural ratio. And what I mean by that is it is only going to produce a certain amount of THD or CBD or terpenes. It's limited biosynthetically to how much it can produce. Whereas you're talking about some of these other products, whether it's a drink or whether it's a gummy or whether it's a vape, and we are just shoving cannabinoids and terpenes in there. I mean, we are putting egregious amounts of these things in there. Like somebody told me the other day, they're like, we have new vape tech and we can put 16% terpenes. I'm like, ew, like why? Why are you doing that? Like we know that we know terpenes are medicinal. We know terpenes are relatively safe, but everything's safe like to a certain extent. And I don't necessarily think that we should be creating products that have just insane amounts of these active compounds because yes, we've been using the plant for you know thousands of years, but we haven't been consuming that for thousands of years. That is certainly, you know, a new formulation that we're creating. So I think it's the most sustainable and most spiritual when we're actually consuming the plant. And um, you know, I get, especially as a new mom, like I get the appeal of like a vape pen. It's it's much more convenient, it's much more discreet. Um, and like I do see where that could come into people's lives. But um, I think one of the ways that I love to consume is dry herb vaping. I don't know if you're familiar with this or the audience is familiar with it. Um, but I think it's a way that you can still use flour, but you're not combusting it. So you essentially have your device, there's a bunch of different dry herb devices, and you put flour in it and then you heat it up to a certain temperature, and then it's essentially just blowing warm air through that flour and only vaporizing the active compounds. So the cannabinoids and terpenes, and it's leaving behind all of the other plant material that doesn't have active compounds in it. So if we're thinking of just like cellulose in the plant, we don't need to take in a bunch of combusted cellulose. That's just kind of extra stuff that's in our lungs that we don't need to be doing. Um, so I think dry herb vaping is like a really great harm reduction mechanism where you can still have that relationship with the flower. You can still smell the flower and like interact with the flower every time you consume it. I think that's also really important. And one of the reasons why I'm not a huge fan of uh those 510 uh vapes because you know, you're you're really not interacting, you don't have any intention built into that process. You know, I've I've been a culprit of this too, where I've had one of those vape pens and I'm just like just hitting it. I'm not even not even thinking about it. I'm just I'm like in a meeting hitting my vape, and I'm like, why am I doing this? I don't, I don't even need to do this right now. I feel great. So I think um we're missing a lot of that intention uh when we're consuming in that form, although some people do love it. And, you know, I I think edibles are another uh great option for a lot of people. I think that's another harm reduction mechanism because we're not putting anything into our lungs. Um, but a lot of people can't feel edibles. We have data through our nonprofit that up to 20% of people can't feel the effects of edibles. 20%.

SPEAKER_00: 28:39

Yeah. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_01: 28:41

It is crazy. And we thought that number was like so inflated. We're like, this data can't be right. Like we took it, our first data set was with 20,000 people, then it was with 6,000 people, and we still got 18% with that second data set, and we're like, this is crazy. And then we were at a conference and we were talking to a medical doctor who sees patients for cannabis, and he pulled us aside and he's like, you know, in my practice, I see about one in five people can't feel the effects of edibles. So I think your data is like really, really fascinating, and nobody's talking about this yet.

SPEAKER_00: 29:13

And do we understand like what's driving that? Is it like that their livers are hyperprocessing this and kind of stripping out the cannabinoids, or is it just that they're because it's still it's still the same cannabinoids hitting the system. It's just hitting it different pathways, right? Like, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 29:31

So there has been a paper published on this, and I think it's kind of the best running theory is that certain liver, we call them isozymes or like specific types of enzymes, certain people are not producing uh or have genetic variations in that isozyme that is responsible for processing THD in the body. So typically THC is processed to 11 hydroxy THC, and then that's the one that's actually getting you high. So that one's entering your brain. But for some people, it's really just skipping over 11 hydroxy and going towards the next metabolite, which does not get you high. So they're like super rapid producers, and they're really never getting towards that, you're not getting a lot of that 11 hydroxy in your body that would make you feel the effects. Your body's just turning THC into essentially an inactive metabolite. So you're not gonna feel the effects of it. So when people come up to me and they're like, I can take a gram of THC and I feel nothing, I'm like, you should stop doing that. That's like that's like a lot of pressure on your liver. And if you're not even feeling the effects, like choose a different consumption method because you know, that's that's a lot for your liver to process. And if you're on something like other medications, um, that could change the way other medications are being processed as well.

SPEAKER_00: 30:51

So it would be really interesting to take those subjects and try the beverage format in comparison to an edible format with them, just because the the PK studies that we've done show this like initial spike of of D9 in the bloodstream, and then you actually feel that, but to your point, it then circulates and eventually turns to eleven hydroxy. So it might create a bit of an experience for them, maybe not as heavy as someone that is experiencing the leaven hydroxy in the in this in the secondary kind of pass of the liver.

SPEAKER_01: 31:26

But um, I think that's a great theory. I I always tell people to try like fast-acting products or beverage products if they can't feel it, or even um if you can find like a lozenge or just have a gummy that you can like kind of suck on in your mouth so that you get a lot of that absorption um in your mouth and you don't need to like chew it so it's it's not being processed by the liver as much. I think there are ways around it. I also think that the the liver enzyme sitch is not the full story. I think there's a few other things happening uh that lead, like maybe that's responsible for like 15% of people, but I think there's other things occurring too, like differences in gut microbiota. That's another theory I have. Um other theories. Oh, gallbladder. I think uh different people are producing different levels of like bile acids and changing the way that we can actually um digest these different products. So I I think there's a few other things happening, but I think it's something that our industry should put funding towards studying because if there was any other medicine where 20% of people couldn't feel the effects of one administration route, I think we'd be studying that already. But you know, we're not we're not there yet with cannabis, but I think we will get there.

SPEAKER_00: 32:40

Yeah, uh a funded study has to lead to a a a negative headline for the industry, right?

SPEAKER_01: 32:46

It always does.

SPEAKER_00: 32:49

Um well let's let's get to the positive side. Let's get to why like why we should be consuming these these products or or why people are. You chose to wrote write a book. And maybe this is because you were feeling censored by TikTok. I would kind of curious as to like how you embarked on writing a book. I always hear it's so much more work than we realize uh doing. Unbelievable. Congratulations on making it through. Tell us a little bit about reefer wellness and what the inspiration was behind it, and then we'll kind of dive into what you what you uncover, what you discovered.

SPEAKER_01: 33:21

Yeah, I'd love to. Yeah. So the book is called Reefer Wellness, which is essentially using science to reverse the stigma of reefer madness. So that's where um the title came from. And I never really planned on writing a book, but through producing short form content, somebody actually reached out to me and was like, hey, Riley, like this information's fantastic. This should be accessible to more people. Have you ever thought about writing a book? And I'm like, no, I didn't. After writing my dissertation, I'm like, no, that sounds terrible. Um, but I started working with her and we wrote a book proposal together. And then uh we pitched it to different publishing houses. And we actually had three offers from three different publishing houses to publish this book. And we ended up uh working with Penguin Random House, which is actually insane because they have traditionally been kind of anti-cannabis or at least neutral and kind of stayed away from the topic. Um, so they were like, you know, we want to talk more about this, and we think your book is kind of the perfect place for it because it's very science-centered. And before I signed that contract, I said, just to let you guys know, I'm not neutral on this subject. Like I am a cannabis consumer. I am part of this community, I'm part of this industry. And the book's not going to be completely neutral either. Like I will talk about negatives, but this book is meant to be like a positive vibe for cannabis to help educate cannabis consumers, you know, not to keep people away from the plant. So I told them that and they said, you know what, Riley? It's your book. Be as radical as you want. And I said, All right, where do I sign?

SPEAKER_00: 35:03

So I think that that's one of the major publishing houses. There's there's only a handful of them. And it's yeah, that's really cool. Like how how did that conversation go? Were they interested in working with you also because of the following that you had amassed and like that your your ability to sell the book?

SPEAKER_01: 35:23

Like how was yeah, let me tell you about that because that that is something I learned with writing the book. Is most of these publishing houses don't do book offers with anyone who doesn't have a following right now, because they like they don't have much of a of a uh marketing department anymore. They almost fully rely on the author to do all of the marketing for the book, which I was like kind of upset about because I'm like, you know, I'm happy to do some marketing. I didn't know 100% was gonna be on me, especially with cannabis content still being censored. Like it's something that you have to worry about. So um unfortunately, yeah, they they really like there's some people I know who should write a book, but they aren't on social media. And I'm like, what a disservice to people who have such a cool story and such a cool life and such a cool perspective. You know, they're probably never going to get a book deal because unfortunately, that's the infrastructure that we're working with right now. Um so that's something I learned during the process, is it's it's really all on the author. And that's why so many influencers you see are getting book deals now because that's who they're giving book deals to.

SPEAKER_00: 36:35

Yeah. I mean, I think it's also why we see this surge happening in in self-publishing and in platforms to help people do that. I guess and then we'll actually talk get to the content of the book, but um I I love this. I I've had ideas of writing a book at times. Obviously, I just don't have enough time. Uh but if you were to do it again, would you still go this the route? Because you know, it it means something. It there's like it's a badge of honor to to truly be published by one of the the big three.

SPEAKER_01: 37:08

Uh yes. If I had to do it again, I would do a couple things different. Uh one, I would probably write a lot of the book before like trying to get it published by someone. I would, I would want at least like a really robust scaffold and maybe like a few different chapters written. Because after I signed the contract, I think it was like one calendar year that I had to write the entire book. And like I run multiple companies, I do a lot of stuff, I'm a new mom. I had like, you know, I had a lot going on. And I was like, oh my gosh, like this is this is happening quick. And in cannabis, a lot of times, like deadlines get pushed. It's like, hey, we're shooting for January, but how about March? You know, but in the publishing world, a deadline is like, if you don't hit this deadline, your book is not going to get published. So the deadlines are super, super strict. And um yeah, so that's what I would, I would have done more work on the front end. Um, and maybe I just needed to like believe in myself a little more, but I was kind of like, you know, who knows where this proposal is gonna go? I'm not gonna put in all this work for nothing. Um, so uh that was definitely a learning experience. But one of the coolest parts of working with a big publishing house was um the network of artists that they have um at their disposal. They have these certain artists that they work with all the time with the different books. And essentially, I was telling um the editor that I was working with, I was like, this is kind of the vibe I'm going for. I want it to be very like bright and colorful and like embrace diversity and like really I want a ton of pictures. So if someone just opens this up, they're gonna be like, cool, I'm gonna start here because that's a fun picture. We all like picture books, and especially cannabis consumers. Like the book was written for cannabis consumers, and like I know the brains of my people, like I know we want to see colorful, fun things all the time. So um I got I just got linked up with this amazing artist, and she was actually not a cannabis consumer. So some of the images that were in the book, I was like, I want a joint uh wearing a robe and like like like just like really crazy. And she's like, Okay, okay. And and then she'd send me a she'd send me a version. I'm like, you got it, girl. Like, this is exactly what I was going for. So I think she was she thought I was an absolute wild card, but she was she was great to work with.

SPEAKER_00: 39:34

That's amazing. That's amazing. Okay, so you're a new mom. Before the show, you're saying that you have a six-month-old at home, which is amazing. Congratulations.

SPEAKER_01: 39:44

Thanks.

SPEAKER_00: 39:46

You're a cannabinoid chemist, doctor, author of a book, Reefer Wellness. As you're bringing new life into the world, and you're thinking about them growing up around all this knowledge of the plant and your passion for it. Like how do you imagine their perspective of the plant and cannabis and cannabinoids and as as they grow up in this this new world, like that you're helping create, right? You're helping create the a different perspective or reality for the plant. And yeah. For all of us parents out here. Like, how should we be talking about the plant? Like, what are like the wellness aspects and like the you you you mentioned having you know some uh perspective or or reservation of like, you know, there there are some downsides to the plant that people need to be aware of, but largely being an advocate and and very positive-minded about it.

SPEAKER_01: 40:42

Yeah, and and just to be clear, I think to be an advocate, you also need to acknowledge the negatives. Like it's it's really important, especially like we're we're publishing a paper on CHS right now. Like it's literally about to go into print, it's all done, it's been accepted. And we got a lot of backlash for publishing about CHS. And it's like, just to remind you guys, you want us to be publishing about CHS. You don't want people who hate the plant and hate the people and hate the industry to be publishing about CHS because that narrative is going to go in a very different direction. So I do think it's important to acknowledge the positive and negatives. And the way I'm planning on talking to my son about it as he's growing up is just respecting the plant and making sure we understand like this is a powerful medicine. This is a medicine. People are using this for medicinal reasons. And I'm uh I'm a very responsible consumer. Um, so I feel like the way that I interact with the plant and appreciate the plant and have this very like spiritual connection with it, I think that will be translated to him as well. And he's not gonna want to just blaze up to get high all the time. You know, he'll probably first be introduced to it as a plant that's growing and like not even know that like I'm consuming the plant, but just know that like it's a beautiful plant that grows. And then eventually, you know, talking about it and like the reasons I use it. Like I use it for anxiety, I use it for seizures, I use it, you know, for for mood regulation, all of these different things. And just for him to know, like this is the medicine that mom uses, but other people use other medicine that looks very different. It might come in a pill bottle or it might come, you know, in a different form. Uh, but but medicine is is meant to be that. It's meant to be sustainable and benefit your life. And that's what I get out of the plant. So that's kind of what I'm helping hoping to introduce to him, but not be like smoking in front of him. I don't want to introduce any like smoke to him when when unnecessary, but it really just all comes down to like respect for for the plant. And I also feel like that's where sometimes people get a little hung up when they're daily consumers of the plant or they're only again using those vapes and stuff. Is we've kind of lost respect for such a powerful medicine. Like it is a very powerful medicine, and we need to make sure that we're treating it like that, and that we're making sure that we're always checking in with ourselves, and we got to make sure that like, you know, we're maintaining that relationship in a positive way.

SPEAKER_00: 43:16

I think that creates so many there's so many challenges with that, the the the use of the plant and how it's being used. Um there's many different places with it, and we've experienced this, you know, over the years, like whether it's the emergence of medical markets and those quickly being coming eclipsed by the adult use markets, or even just how we're using in our everyday life. You know, are we doing it habitually, are we doing it to relax at the end of the day, or are we actually trying to have like a spiritual experience? And like all this starts to morph together very quickly. And I think it's makes it challenging for us when we're having the policy conversations about like you know, especially. Especially, you know, for what we work really closely with is like this like low dose beverage format, you know, that is is reaching the mass public and kind of creating an alternative to alcohol. But to your point, it's just like I don't like to use the word shoving, but we are just shoving cannabinoids into like a liquid. Um and yeah, it's just creating these different use cases, but they don't want to hear the words medical, right? And it's like, oh, we kind of have to distance ourselves, but we're still using the same compounds. So from your perspective, like bridging like this stigma with with the science and like progressing the conversation. Like, how do how do we think about education? What do you need us in the industry to be doing to kind of progressing this conversation? Because we do have a long ways, a long way to go, it seems.

SPEAKER_01: 44:51

We do have a long ways to go. And I find when I make content, sometimes the cannabis industry is our biggest op, our biggest hater. And it's like, what are you doing, dude? Like I'm trying, I'm trying so hard to like create educational content that can be used, you know, as advocacy. I always say like science is advocacy and the way we can use science to show up to like legislative meetings or whatever it is, like citing science is really, really powerful. Legislators listen to science, but oftentimes on social media, it's like you post something and they'll be like, well, that's actually not true because blah, blah, blah, blah, blah or that's not my experience because blah blah blah. And it's like, that's fine. You can have that. I respect your experience, but like think of the voice that you're putting into the world here as a cannabis brand or a cannabis grower or whatever you are. Like, we can't, we need to look united in this front so that we we're much more powerful when we are united. So I think way ways that we can encourage this is always encouraging like harm reduction, always encouraging balance products, always encouraging tolerance breaks, you know. I think I'm not somebody who personally takes tolerance breaks because I consume low levels, like I don't consume really high levels that build up a huge tolerance. But I think tolerance breaks, even just advocating for them and saying, like, hey, we need to have regular check-ins, we need to, you know, be able to have that reconnection with our body, I think that's really important. Um, and always like, for me, it's always advocating for the plant too, to because we have these different industries popping up or these different products popping up. And it seems like we are getting further and further from the plant. And I just like to remind people like where it started. And we really don't have a legal industry if we don't have access to the plant. Um, I I think of Alabama's about to open up their medical cannabis market as an edibles-only market, the first of its kind. So there's gonna be no plant products available on the entire market, and there's there's no home grow as well. So there, there's no plant available in the cannabis industry in that state. And that's just like really, really disheartening for me because for me, I think actually consuming the whole plant is the form of harm reduction and feeling that connection. So um just making sure wherever we're advocating, we're we're remembering where we came from. You know, we didn't come from isolating out individual compounds and um dosing in that way. We came from consuming the plant, and that's where we should at the very least always have access to the I totally agree that the science and the research really helps with these legislative conversations.

SPEAKER_00: 47:41

And we often in the industry complain about not having a ton of research to draw from. I think that's becoming more of a fallacy than than it is fact. Um but there's all sorts of different data and research that we are doing, can be doing, and you know, companies could very much get involved with this. And I it would be helpful if maybe you could describe some of the different methods by which we can do research, be it like data or or user-based research, and what companies might be able to invest in to kind of continue to further further this conversation.

SPEAKER_01: 48:20

Yeah, so um I think cannabis is kind of unique because we have like millions of people consuming it every single day, and we need to leverage that a little bit more. Like it's such a unique natural product because so many people consume it in so many different forms, but we often do have a certificate of analysis telling us what's actually in that product. So we have the ability to tie together a user experience and a chemical profile. So I think we're just at the beginning of actually utilizing this to the the extent that it can be available. But to your point, working companies get involved. Somewhere we the space that we work in a lot is real-world data, is acquiring real world data. So people living their normal life, taking a product, and how does that benefit them or how does that impact their life? We work with a company called More Better quite a bit. Um awesome. They're a great team. Yep, Tyler and Kevin, they're awesome. We love working with them. And essentially, if a brand has a new product coming out or a new formulation coming out, and they want to know how well it works for sleep or for anxiety or for um inflammation, whatever it is for their lifestyle, that we can essentially set up an entire study to get a certain user base to get products to those people. Then we take a certain amount of baseline data before they try the product, then we give them the product, and then we take more data for at least two more weeks. And now we can compare days without the product with days with the product to see, you know, what was measurably changing among those different time periods. So this is called longitudinal data, and it's really, really impactful. We've seen some really crazy data come out of different studies, and we're not just studying cannabis either, we're studying other natural products like kava, like kratom, um, so other plant medicines too, um, through this kind of infrastructure that we've set up with them. Um, and then also like we have a nonprofit. We have a 501c3 nonprofit called NAP that you mentioned in the beginning. And we can do specific research projects as well. Like we have one called Science of Smokability, where we're trying to learn what goes into growing quality smokable flour. And um that could be the nutrient load, that could be the dry and cure process, that could be many different things. Um, but essentially, if we have a more smokable product, it also typically results in better chemistry entering your body and thus harm reduction as well. You know, we say nobody should ever smoke, but you're never gonna stop people from smoking weed. People are always gonna be smoking weed. So we should at least be studying what the best way to do that is and how we can produce the least amount of harmful compounds uh through this process. So uh that's just an example of a project, but we have many other things in the works. So if your company either wants to fund a study that we're doing or wants to fund a study that they want to dive into their own product or process a little more, um, you can reach out to us and and we'd be happy to work with you in that capacity too.

SPEAKER_00: 51:30

That's awesome. What study would you punt to the front of the line if someone wrote you like a million-dollar check?

SPEAKER_01: 51:39

Like what great We were kind of nerding out about this earlier, but I have a dream study that I want to conduct that, in my opinion, would kind of, I wouldn't say solve, but get a lot closer to determining strain-specific effects and be able to look at the chemistry from much more of like a 30,000-foot view. Instead of just looking at THC and CBD and maybe a couple terpenes, we can look at the plant more as a whole. And we can also layer this with the activity that that specific cultivar or strain has on certain receptors. So now we can layer bioactivity in the body with the chemical diversity in the plant. And we can start looking at things at such a larger scale. And I have such a good way to display this too. Um, but you know, again, the this type of large data and large analysis does unfortunately take large amounts of money. So that's where a lot of my time has been lately is writing grants to try to get money to study this because I think it's what the cannabis industry needs. It's what I wish I could see when I was buying products at a dispensary or trying to find a strain that worked for my brain. Uh, so it's kind of my hyperfixation right now. And I think it could really like change the way we see the plant if we can make it come to fruition.

SPEAKER_00: 53:06

Yeah. Yeah. I if I think about the last couple of years and any progress we've made on the on the federal conversation, it's largely been focused on creating more pathways for research. And I'm wondering now if that has actually resulted in more grants being available for research. It's are are we?

SPEAKER_01: 53:27

I think it did. I think it did initially, and then we had kind of a halt on all grants for a while. So then we kind of had to step back.

SPEAKER_00: 53:36

So then we're talking about schedule three and hemp and a little bit of whiplash.

SPEAKER_01: 53:42

I think we're getting to the point where we're gonna have easier access to cannabis and more grant funding available. Um, in the past, almost all the grant funding for cannabis came from NIDA, which is the National Institute on Drugs of Abuse. So all of your proposals had to be like, how is cannabis harmful to people? And that's just not not what we study. So um now we're looking at other funding uh bodies like the NCCIH, the National Center for Complementary and Integrative Health, um, and and other more like botanical focused uh grant programs that can really focus on like whole plant medicine and and what that means for cannabis consumers.

SPEAKER_00: 54:21

Yeah, yeah. Wow. Riley, I feel like uh I could just talk to you for hours about about the plant. This is amazing. Thank you so much for spending the time. We are approaching the top of the hour, and every show we like to do this thing we call a last call. Um, you know, your final message for our listeners, any advice, call to action, uh cannabis or otherwise, it can really be about anything. What would you like to tell our listeners, Riley?

SPEAKER_01: 54:51

Yeah, I would like to say, um, kind of reiterating what I've been saying, is like grow the plant, you're gonna learn something about yourself and this amazing plant. You don't need to smoke the plant that you grow, but just watching it establish is gonna change your relationship with it. And um, I think cannabis consumers in general, like if you can show someone else who's looking to try cannabis products, if you can be a really good advocate and a really good um leader in the space, if you can show somebody essentially how to consume cannabis responsibly, how to roll a joint, how to consume in these different ways and personalize your medicine. I think it's really important for um educated consumers to be mentors towards other people so that other people understand the different ways that we can really get the most out of this amazing plant. Um, and if you want to stay up with all the stuff that I'm doing online and nonprofit stuff, uh you can follow me online at CanabaCam. That's C-A-N-N-A-B-I-C-H-E-M. I post on TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, and I just started Facebook, but I have mixed feelings about that. Um and yeah, I post about our nonprofit all the time too. So that's called NAP or Network of Applied Pharmacognosy. Uh, and we're also on Instagram.

SPEAKER_00: 56:10

Amazing. Well, you you took care of all the points there. I was I was gonna ask you how to get in touch with you. Uh hit her up at Cannabacem. It's Dr. Riley Kirk. Riley, thank you so much for for spending the last hour with us. You're just a wealth of information and doing great work to promote the plant. So thank you for all that you do.

SPEAKER_01: 56:31

Thank you for having me on and having a super nerdy conversation. I know it's a little different than your normal guests, so I appreciate uh appreciate the invite.

SPEAKER_00: 56:40

I'm here for it. I'm here for it. I'll talk to you soon.

SPEAKER_01: 56:44

Cool.

SPEAKER_00: 56:46

All right, everyone. What do you think? The good Dr. Riley Kirk, pick up her book, Refer Wellness, hit her up at Cannabicem. Uh great content, always very engaging, and truly is doing good work for all of us. Uh if you've enjoyed this episode, please drop us a review, a like, subscribe, share all the things, Apple Podcasts or Spotify or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Uh thank you, thank you to our teams at Vertosa and Wolfmeyer, and of course our producer, Eric Rossetti. As always, folks, stay curious, stay informed, and keep your spirits high. Until next time, that's the show.