SPEAKER_01: 0:00

Maybe if you're listening, you're like, okay, Ben was talking about the long history of cannabis. Why are you talking about a nineteen seventy uh Playboy?

SPEAKER_02: 0:06

I'm here for it. Uh you don't have to explain.

SPEAKER_03: 0:35

We're recording Tuesday, December 30th, 2025. I'm Ben Larson, and with me as always is Anna Ray Grabstein. It's the holidays. We're warm and cozy. Working, kind of. Recording here today. Um, but yeah, just excited to be here. Anna Ray, how's your holidays been? Did you get everything you wanted for Hanukkah?

SPEAKER_01: 0:59

Thank you for asking. What I don't even know what I wanted for Hanukkah. Uh, but my holidays have been really good. It's been a lot. It's like it's been full on. My birthday came, three days later was Hanukkah. Then we got a couple days off before Christmas. And then Christmas happened, and then my husband's birthday, and now it's December 30th. And I feel like it's been a bit of holiday whiplash. Um, but I'm still hanging in there, feeling positive, having a good time. And I am wearing a cool new jacket that I got. Um, and yeah, it's been it's been pretty fun. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_03: 1:38

That is a December. Oh my god. I know. I was listening to the the journal podcast put out the wall by the Wall Street Journal, and they were they were making this argument. It's like, oh, we should do uh we should do Valentine's Day in place of Christmas, and we should do Christmas in place of Valentine's Day, because we have this whole stretch in the winter where we don't have like a major, major holiday, and we just have this crazy onslaught of stuff, uh, starting with Thanksgiving on through December. But it sounds like you have it double duty. Um, so good to see you here.

SPEAKER_01: 2:12

Thanks. I mean, it's my choice to celebrate all the holidays, but I will say in years past, I have had a lot more anxiety and stress about the holidays. And so I feel like I'm having a personal win on my own emotional healing journey that I did not have the same anxiety and stress that I have had in years past. But because I was able to leave that behind, I also had a little bit less care of like, what is this all for? And what is it all about? Um, giving myself a little bit less grace, or a little more grace, excuse me, to like not not make it perfect, to kind of do it our own way and to do what felt right, you know. Um I tried to shop locally. How did how did you do? Did you shop locally? Were you all online?

SPEAKER_03: 3:00

We didn't do a lot of shopping, to be honest. And the kids were a little bit disappointed with that. We did a little bit of online shopping, a little bit of local shopping, but um very similarly, this this season for me has been a lot of just decompression. I feel like it was a very intense year, largely good. I mean, the first like 10 and a half months of the year was just off to the races, build as quickly as possible. Um, felt very fortunate about that. And then we all know kind of what started to transpire mid-November as we're coming out of the government shutdown, and then leading up to kind of this whole rescheduling thing. So it was just very intense, whether it was from a business standpoint or just intellectually, trying to sort through it all, um, trying to understand what it means for our company for the next year and the year after that. Um, and so I've really taken the opportunity starting last week of just like not really doing a whole lot, just like letting it all seep in, uh, mentally prepare for for the year to come. Luckily, we didn't have to travel for the holidays, so we've just been staying put, just hanging out. Yeah, it's been really good.

SPEAKER_01: 4:09

I totally feel the same. I've been letting myself kind of relax into the quiet. We've got a wood fire stove and lots of stretching on the floor and in front of the fire, and and just letting myself feel all of the things that have happened this year. There's been so much uh change in 2025. And uh it just it's always hard to know what's coming next, but I think to give ourselves some quiet reflection can open up the creativity as we go into the new year to create something new. Um yeah, I'm curious if there was if cannabis was a part of your holiday celebration.

SPEAKER_03: 4:54

Um not in a ceremonial way. And I don't know if it was celebration or just helping ease those kind of like tensions. And you know, I'm um I'm a doer. I I like to I like to do things, I like to build. I'm actually mid on a new build. I finished the kids' clubhouse, I'm building a new kind of auxiliary shed in in my yard that'll make number three at this point. Um, so I've been trying not to like feel guilty about sitting just with my thoughts and and not pushing hard through it, but um, that's been the balance. So weed definitely helps with that. Um, and so been enjoying a beverage or two here and there, just relaxing, um, but not but not overdoing it. Um, just you know, trying to focus on my health, really, you know. I think it was about this time last year we were really talking about my new health routine. Um, really stuck with it over the last year. Uh, and I got a new device to help me measure even deeper like analytics about my body. So um, yeah, using this time to get a jumpstart on 2026 and and set some new elements of my routine.

SPEAKER_01: 6:03

That's awesome. Well, with with all the family around, I've noticed like my cannabis consumption habits and and preferences sort of like shift and adjust. And um, and so like more or more, but also different, like with the kids around, like not not doing any inhalation in front of the kids, something that we do in our house. And so definitely things that are more subtle, like a beverage or an edible, but like because there hasn't been shit to do, like maybe an edible in the morning with coffee, um, and then like a lovely, just soft, warm day.

SPEAKER_02: 6:38

Um hippie speedball.

SPEAKER_01: 6:40

Yeah, it's such a great combo. And then, and then you know, when my dad shows up for Christmas, like we like to get away and enjoy a joint or like a little bong hit or something, and so we gotta like sit up to speak easy in the garage for that, um, away from the kiddos. But um, yeah, I like that.

SPEAKER_03: 6:59

I I that that's something I don't have with my parents or haven't attempted to have yet. So it's like very like when I consume, it's very kind of like solo um for a number of reasons. Um, but yeah, how is that like communing with your father over a bong?

SPEAKER_01: 7:16

Oh, it's great. Um highly recommend it to everyone, you know. My so my dad has is like the original cannabis consumer in my life, so it's not like I had to introduce it to him. Um, quite the opposite. Like I I my first cannabis consumption was me stealing his roaches that I knew were attached to them, cutting them open, and like trying to figure out how to smoke them when I was very young. And uh, so I I'm not I'm not introducing him to anything new. He's pretty much an old hat.

SPEAKER_03: 7:49

How do you know there are roaches and he just wasn't into like soldering or something like that?

SPEAKER_01: 7:54

I I don't know how I knew it, but I knew that that was weed and that I wanted to try it. And so yeah, he had and he was old school, like he had a little tin of tons of roaches because back in the day, you know, you want to make use of everything. So he might have been enjoying his green bud or whatever the bud was that he got from his guy. But at some point he was gonna run out and then he would like go hit up the roach stash. Um, but he always did it privately. Like the the cannabis consumption that happened was not done in front of me and my brother. Um, but of course, you're a kid and you still kind of know. Um, so yeah, I mean, I I love I love consuming cannabis with my dad now because he loves it. Um, he loves all things intoxicating. Um so you know, I I I'm not I'm not as extreme. Yeah, he loves his whiskey and all the types, like scotch, bourbon, all of them. Um the brown liquors and the cannabis are things that he's a big fan of.

SPEAKER_03: 8:54

So when am I gonna get to hang out with your dad? He sounds pretty, pretty fun.

SPEAKER_01: 8:58

Yeah, I I think that we should have him come over to Vertosa. He would love it. I think it would be fun if he could participate in one of your guys' uh like little trials that you do where you do observation and people get hired.

SPEAKER_03: 9:11

Pharmacodynamics study.

SPEAKER_01: 9:14

He would love that. I think that he um he loves getting to experience kind of what cannabis has become. I took him to a an indoor grow after legalization launched in California, and he was very shortly thereafter going to his Stanford reunion. He graduated from Stanford in 1972. And I think this must have been, I don't know, maybe some kind of like 40. It was in 2018, 2019, probably. So whatever the math is on that. But he was so excited to get to go to his college reunion and tell everyone that he had just been at a legal indoor cannabis grow in San Francisco. Um, because they were really a part of the counterculture back then.

SPEAKER_03: 9:57

Um it's so interesting how far we've come as an industry when it comes to like products and state level legalization. And yet it's been such a snail's pace at the federal level. Like, you know, like the conversations that we're having right now regarding rescheduling, like feels like it's been going on for a long time.

SPEAKER_01: 10:19

Oh my gosh, it's kind of wild. Um you know, we are in the holidays, we've been talking about it, and so I wanted to buy like used things in local retail as gifts. And um, I went to an antique fair in early December, and I ended up buying a bunch of gifts there, and one of them um was for my husband for his birthday, and I picked him up the 1970 January holiday issue of Playboy. If you're on video, yeah, there's some cute 1970 titties on there. Um, and uh and it's really thick, also, by the way. If if you're on video, you can see how many pages are in this Playboy magazine.

SPEAKER_03: 11:04

Yeah, it looks like a vogue or something.

SPEAKER_01: 11:07

And maybe if you're listening, you're like, okay, Ben was talking about the long history of cannabis. Why are you talking about a 1970 uh Playboy?

SPEAKER_02: 11:14

I'm here for it. You don't have to explain.

SPEAKER_01: 11:17

And and I I really did not I did not buy the Playboy magazine for any cannabis-related reason, but as such is my life, of course. Um, turning to page four to the dear playboy letter section, it's all about marijuana policy. And uh yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03: 11:37

And so you actually sat down and started reading the articles in the Playboy.

SPEAKER_01: 11:41

So I did not, but my husband did. And he left he left it open and was like, you gotta check this out. Is this why you bought the magazine? And I was like, What are you talking about? He said, look at these letters. And as it turned out, the issue that came right before the holiday issue that they published in '69 was um an article from a Dr. Joel Fort. And it was titled Pot, a rational approach. And these letters in the holiday issue were all responses to this article that Dr. Fort had written. And his core thesis of the article was that marijuana policy had become detached from science, proportionality, and public health, and that the consequences of prohibition were more harmful than the drug itself. And he was advocating more sensible governance, regulation, and public policy. He uh said that the risks of marijuana were exaggerated, that it was less dangerous than alcohol and tobacco, and that it did not justify felony penalties. Um, he said that the science had been politicized, and that he called separating moral, he called for separating moral discomfort from medical evidence. What are we not still having this conversation today? Crazy, right?

SPEAKER_03: 13:03

Well, it's yeah, it is crazy because like the Controlled Substances Act came out right around the same time, right? It was like 1970.

SPEAKER_01: 13:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_03: 13:12

So that the bill was signed into law.

SPEAKER_01: 13:15

The bill was signed into the law in 1970, creating the schedule. So we were having this policy debate. This was published in 1969 at the end of the year, right around this time of year. And within 12 months, the the marijuana uh the marijuana scheduling into schedule one had occurred. So 55 years ago, we were having a very similar debate as we were having today. Um, but this time it was habit happening in a men's magazine, uh, which just blows my mind. I mean, come on. Uh so I just I just really was taken aback. And as we are thinking about what we wanted to say for the end of the year, it's so important as we like to look back on the short term to even look back and say, like, are we repeating the history that uh that we've been through before? And I think that the history is different, it looks different, but it's it's still it's it's we're still having the same debate.

SPEAKER_03: 14:17

Um yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 14:19

Some yeah, so some things I wanted to point out too. Yeah, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03: 14:22

Well, yeah, it's it's just one of my big fears about where we're at right now is I think there's a lot of excitement about this administration and what they could do for the progression of a policy reform for for cannabis. But as this letter in 1970 pointed out, like the the impacts to the war on uh of the war on drugs to communities, like I don't think this administration is is very motivated to write those impacts. And so sure we might get some advances from a business standpoint with the removal of 280e, schedule three is not gonna do a whole lot more besides uh opening up new pathways to research and and we've talked about all this, but the the sad thing is that we're we're just not going to I just don't think we're gonna see any progress for the damages done to to communities of color and and other minority groups because of cannabis it with this administration, I would agree with this administration. We may lay the groundwork for something to be done in future administrations, but yeah, hopefully it doesn't take 55 more years.

SPEAKER_01: 15:31

Yeah, you know, I I'm with you, and I think that it is important to remember that even 55 years ago we were talking about the harms of criminalization, but there's also something else going on which is interesting, which is that there's a there's been a narrative that that cannabis policy and advocacy and reform is some sort of counterculture movement. Uh, but what I'm looking at in the pages of Playboy are letters from sitting US members of the House of Representatives. There were three letters in the magazine published from different representatives Representative Jerome Waldy, um, Representative William Hathaway, and Representative Charles Wilson, along with Harry Anslinger, who at that time in 1969 had retired from over 32 years as commissioner of the Federal Bureau of Narcotics. He basically was the one that created the Marijuana Tax Act in 1937 and was the originator of many of the fear-based narratives around cannabis prohibition, violence, insanity, moral collapse related to cannabis, all these things. And yet, here all these people are writing to Playboy. Um, and the fact that that was happening in the pages of a men's magazine in 1969 just reinforced for me that this is not a counterculture discussion. This is mainstream. We have Congress people that have been actually calling for more medical evidence, more mainstream policy discussions for a really long time. And it's now just like time to get something done. You know, this is just the debate is real, it's been national for a long time, it belongs in public view. Uh, I'm just I'm just haunted by this. I I can't seem to get over it.

SPEAKER_03: 17:29

Yeah, I just think it's when Richard Nixon was impeached. I think they should have just like erased anything he had ever done because like the controlled like the controlled substances act has just been such the like the bane of our society. I don't know. Um yeah, I it is a shame. I I do hope we can move past it. I do hope we can I don't know. I I yeah, how do we remove ourselves from this counterculture label that we've had to bear, you know, for the last five or six decades plus, right? Um also just side note really interesting that Congressmen used to be uh comfortable writing in letters and being published in in Playboy in a men's magazine. I had always heard the joke when I was growing up about oh, we read it for the articles. I thought that was just uh a cover-up, but apparently the articles were pretty good.

SPEAKER_01: 18:30

The articles were so good. There's all these other incredible articles in there, too. We won't go down that rabbit hole because they're not cannabis related. But yeah, I mean, there's just there's a lot of mirrors to today in looking back into history. But at the same time, what's chilling is that like we've we've got more data. We have millions of legal consumers today, we have billions of dollars of regulated sales. Um, but yet we're still saying the same arguments that they were saying back then. We need more studying, we have all these public health concerns, we must proceed cautiously. It's like we've been proceeding cautiously. And so 55 years later, we're still asking the same question. Why is policy so far behind the evidence? Um and I think that the Playboy has kind of given me this moment to think of an answer, which is that maybe because it always has. This is just a hard conversation. It touches on all of these aspects of the human condition. It touches on public health, it put touches on on religion and morals and federal jobs, federal jobs, yeah, incarceration, bigotry, um leadership, kind of all of like where where are arguments one? Um, who who's in control? Where the power dynamics lie? It's unionization. All this stuff. It's just wild.

SPEAKER_03: 20:02

So anyway. Doesn't seem like our job's going to get any easier anytime soon.

SPEAKER_01: 20:08

So no. But but you know, we're at the end of the year. And um, the end of the year is also kind of a cool time to think about the the kind of the symbolism of some of the other dynamics that are going on. And um we're ending the year of the snake, and we're moving into Europe the wood snake, exactly.

SPEAKER_03: 20:30

I did uh throughout the year I've I've touched on that. I I haven't been really big into it throughout the years, but it did feel like a year, especially at the beginning of the year, that we're going to be going through this year of transformation and that we were going to shed the old scars and skin of years past. And it really did feel like that. And it was so exciting. It was like nice as a business leader to be able to give a speech at the beginning of the year and to have it have continuity throughout the year. Um and then I don't know really how to rationalize what's happening over the last month or two. Uh still working on that, but yeah, what what what's what's the year ahead? I should know this with my heritage.

SPEAKER_01: 21:10

Uh yes, the way to rationalize it is looking at the year ahead, which is the year of the fire horse. And what the horse represents is acceleration, momentum, and focus on the things that matter while leaving behind the things that you shed in the year of the wood snake, all of that old skin. And there's so much focus in 2026, whether it be policy or optimization. There's there's a lot going on in businesses in our space. And I think that the horse is a perfect symbol because the horse necessitates speed, it necessitates clarity. Um winning, there's a lot about winning, you know, and there's a lot of things that we're fighting for this year. And I I think that the symbolism of the fire horse makes me feel like we might be able to pull off some wins too. This is like there's there's a finish line at a horse race. And um we're we're racing towards a lot of things in in this new year. And some of those are things that that that we get to look back on that we left behind. And when you think about leaving behind what we've done in 2025 with the momentum that the businesses got to experience throughout the year, I could also see that there's pieces of of leaving behind some of the of the mistakes that we made as well, and some of the the disc clarity in in policy. And now at least we have a direction that we're moving in, uh, be it in regulated cannabis or hemp or regulatory environment as it relates to full spectrum CBD products, like the executive order says. Like there's just there's a lot of work to be done, but what we're racing towards is wins in this year.

SPEAKER_03: 22:57

So I like it. Saddle up, ladies and gents. We got a race to run.

SPEAKER_01: 23:03

Yeah, absolutely. Um, I'm ready for it. So um fire.

SPEAKER_03: 23:08

Yeah, I love it. Fire horse. Let's go.

SPEAKER_01: 23:11

Fire horse. And there's also within the symbolism of fire, it is supposed to also uh be about heart. And um, there's a lot of fire in our hearts, and it's like this this endless burning, right, inside of us, and and passion um is a part of fire as well. So I think this is also the year to really bring it, is to lead with our purpose, to to feel that fire and passion inside of ourselves as leaders and and operators, and and take that out of ourselves into the winds um and into the acceleration and momentum that we think.

SPEAKER_03: 23:46

Yeah, I feel the last few years have kind of positioned us for this, right? It's like there there was a lot of venture capital that was sucked out of the industry. Uh everyone got down to business fundamentals. This was starting like 2023. People refined their businesses, got a little bit more stable. There was a lot that didn't, and and you know, we we've seen them exit the industry. But getting through this past year, getting to the end of the year, it does feel like there are companies that are emerging that do have that fire in the belly and that the heart that are sustainable businesses, and despite the challenges that we face from a you know regulated perspective. And so if we can get those wins throughout 2026, then we will start really start to gain that momentum. And and that's the hope, right? Is that we push Schedule three through, we defend against the no deductions for marijuana businesses act, we really press forward on the the full spectrum hemp conversation and try to get some some reasonable bounds put in place there. And yeah, there's a lot of progress that could be made in 2026. There's no guarantee. Maybe we'll save what we think will happen for for later in the show, even though we already did that kind of last last week, two weeks ago. Um, but man, even even through the holidays, there's been so much going on, and like LinkedIn has been at no shortage of uh pontificating from various voices in the industry.

SPEAKER_01: 25:24

Yeah, it's true. I'm with you, and I I have tremendous optimism actually, and that's part of what the last week or so of the holidays have given me within the quiet space is as a is a quiet confidence in in both like navigating the complexity of this coming year, but but also believing in in lots of small wins that that I'm gonna get to be a part of, that people I work with are a part of, that I believe the industry is gonna see. And and it's gonna be all across the board. It's gonna be inside people's companies with the way that the culture is being refined and and people are advancing um folks up through leadership channels. Um, it's gonna be about the way that businesses are creating profit and cash flow in order to be able to generate their own growth independent of outside capital in the face of like tremendous uncertainty and complexity. And then it's all the policy stuff that I think we've been leaning into over the last few minutes. So, you know, I I it's those aren't predictions, but it's it's just uh it's just like a faith that I have that it's all gonna be okay, folks. Um, we're gonna get through this, we're gonna solve the hard problems. Um, but yeah, you know, it's it's the end of the year. We did do some predictions last week. We had some technical difficulties with our episode recording. Um, we're gonna keep trying to up level even after almost 120 episodes. It's still challenging sometimes, specifically when we're in person together, which we love.

SPEAKER_03: 26:52

I don't know what it is. It is like Murphy's Law takes over and it's like, oh, we got it dialed in this time, and then something happens, but something happens. Yeah, we'll get it figured out.

SPEAKER_01: 27:02

Having two microphones in the same room, folks, is is not easy. So if there's anyone out there that wants to give us some free consultation about how to get two microphones in the same room and not F it up, uh, we are very open to your feedback from our home studios. It works great.

SPEAKER_03: 27:19

Well, I think that's just it. I think it's like a controlled studio, it's the same setup every time. And the challenge is when we do it in person, we're like hopping here to there and just trying to make it happen in person. So uh, yeah, we'll we'll expand the envelope of what our mobile studio looks like.

SPEAKER_01: 27:35

Yes, but we like each other and it's fun when we get to hang out in person. I do feel like the conversation, the flow is good.

SPEAKER_03: 27:42

But okay. Streamyard's great, hasn't been perfect.

SPEAKER_01: 27:45

Hasn't been perfect. So we wanted to reflect back on the predictions that we made last year um for 2025 and uh see if we were right or wrong. Uh you know, all of our favorite podcasters are doing this, and um, we didn't make really clearly structured predictions, but we made a bunch. And um, I'd say some came true, some didn't, and I think it would be fun to revisit them.

SPEAKER_00: 28:10

So uh what'd we let's let's go through.

SPEAKER_01: 28:14

Yeah, so we predicted that the farm bill gets punted again. That was true. Ding ding ding. Nice. We predicted that states, not feds, would drive cannabis enforcement. I'm not sure there was any cannabis enforcement this year, but the states drive.

SPEAKER_03: 28:43

Uh, but less so from the federal level. There was towards the end of the year, there was a little bit of a raid in Colorado from the feds, but I think that might have been it.

SPEAKER_01: 28:52

And with the exception of the ice raid in in California too.

SPEAKER_03: 28:55

Oh, there was the big ice raid. Yeah. Was that federal? Was that immigration or is that kind of cannabis?

SPEAKER_01: 29:02

It I was cannabis. Yeah, yeah, you're right.

SPEAKER_03: 29:05

There was some border patrol stuff happening, I think, in New Mexico. That was like towards the beginning of the year.

SPEAKER_01: 29:10

Yeah, it was a mess.

SPEAKER_03: 29:12

But um, so yeah, I think it largely goes to the states. I'm gonna give us a win on that one just because although maybe I'll take that one. We we can call it neutral because state-regulated cannabis um was just not impressive. No, there was a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01: 29:30

I'm not gonna say the states did any enforcement that was the good enforcement that they needed to do. Like, look what happened in New York. Like, what a mess, man. Uh, this whole like inversion and and shutting down people, uh firing all of the regulators. It's just like ridiculous.

SPEAKER_03: 29:47

Yeah, and in California, Gavin Newsom clearing declaring his 99% success rate on hemp, but like DCC getting sued for like a completing competence and losing.

SPEAKER_01: 30:00

I know. Okay, well, so our next one. Um, we predicted that beverage would be treated more favorably than other THC form factors in policy.

SPEAKER_03: 30:14

Yeah, what do you think? I mean uh uh I in policy. I don't think there's a ton of evidence of that happening. There have been some cases from certain a small handful of states where where beverages have gotten more favorable treatment. I think it is certainly um happening in conversations, and we'll see more of it in 2026, uh despite the wishes of of many in on in the hemp industry. Um but it is you know from a lot of the conversations I have, you know, especially on the hill, it's certainly the most palatable uh form factor for for policymakers.

SPEAKER_01: 30:55

Yep. And our next one we got wrong. We said that Texas would protect THC beverage, but crack down on other form factors. So we were predicting that there would be a major crackdown in the Texas hemp market, and um we were wrong. There was attempted murder. Attempted murder, and um, there was discussion of protecting beverage, which was our our prediction, but ultimately uh there was not a full crackdown, and there actually is now an effort to do some age gating and some light regulation.

SPEAKER_03: 31:35

But they did they did crack down pretty significantly on inhalables. Uh yeah, that's true. If I recall, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 31:42

Okay, so maybe we didn't get it totally wrong.

SPEAKER_03: 31:45

Not totally wrong. It it was constricted. Um, but yeah, there were there was a bunch of other form factors that that survived um that that v the veto and then the eventual rollout of additional language.

SPEAKER_01: 31:57

Yep. We said that rescheduling will happen and that descheduling will become a real conversation. I think that we got that one wrong. So rescheduling sort almost have it moved forward um as of a couple weeks.

SPEAKER_03: 32:19

So Hail Mary in the 11th hour.

SPEAKER_01: 32:22

But it didn't actually happen, although people kind of have confidence that it will. I think we're still going into the new year, it didn't happen. And I think that descheduling has not been uh a real conversation, so we uh not a real one, but that's wrong.

SPEAKER_03: 32:37

I mean, look, it's it's it's never gonna be a fast conversation, but I think behind the scenes there's been the you know, the the crackdown on hemp has driven organizations closer together. You know, we we've talked about regulatory convergence in the past, and I think there is a unanimous support that we need to drive towards descheduling for the entire plant. And there are efforts to start putting together language of what that might look like to drive us closer there, you know, the one plant kind of initiatives and all that kind of stuff. It's just going to be a multi-year effort. So I will say that the conversation accelerated, especially with some of the kind of heads of state conversations that we're having, you know, through NCIA and other organizations. Um, it's starting to gain momentum. And I'm happy to see that. And hopefully, uh the year of the fire horse will be a good year for those organizations to really start pressing that forward in parallel to all these other initiatives that we talked about earlier.

SPEAKER_01: 33:41

Yeah, I'm with you. And it's been interesting as the rescheduling conversation has become more real. How many, I mean, the LinkedIn, you know, couch surfing, talking heads, but are saying a lot about how it just doesn't go far enough. And that will be the conversation that that comes next that will lead to a descheduling discussion. Hopefully, it doesn't take 55 years and um a revitalization of Playboy's uh journalistic talents to bring that conversation forward. Uh, let's talk about what we thought about categories and consumer behavior. We said that THC beverage and non-alcohol alternatives will continue to take a meaningful share of the consumer market. I think we were right about that. Solidly. Solid. Yeah, definitely. Solid truth. Okay. And then we said that mainstream retail will remain open to beverage um even amid tumultuous regulatory environment. Yeah.

unknown: 34:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 34:46

I'd say yeah. I mean, we saw Circle K, Target, um, Total Wine, like tons of mainstream retailers becoming really interested, plus trade associations in in the open retail space saying yes, please. So the convenience store groups uh raised their hand and said yes, please. So that absolutely the consumers are speaking.

SPEAKER_03: 35:09

Spoken 2025. Every major distributor was talking about it. You know, some of them started to jump in. The timing of the the hemp ban was not favorable to that momentum. But what we've been hearing a lot from various retailers uh and distributors heading into the new year is that I mean the products are selling. And actually, since since the announcement of the hemp ban, sales increased. And so I I think the the progress that we see at the regulatory level uh will really drive what we see in 2026 is that continued support. Um, but I think the volatility is is gonna be um immense if if we don't start to see some real progress uh on the legislative front.

SPEAKER_01: 36:04

Yep. Um when it comes to regulated cannabis markets, we said that 2025 2025 will reward well-run operators and that weak ones will continue falling. And I would say that we were spot on here. Uh, we saw a lot of not a lot, but we saw a handful of prominent companies fall. Uh, Gold Flora, I think, is a great example in California. Public company um completely just went through an entire restructuring and asset sale. And Steezy just stepped in and bought all of their retail stores in California, bringing the Steezy retail store count to over 50 stores in the state. Um, and there's tons more examples that happened throughout the year. So um, yeah, I think that's gonna continue in 2026.

SPEAKER_03: 37:00

Yeah. Um, I interesting. I I saw a report recently that said that this was the first year that we've seen regulated numbers decline. And I didn't dig into it enough to really understand what the you know what that means for actual sales in individual states and like new markets coming online and all that, like but um really interesting to hear that. It's like we're hitting this like stagnation because of how challenging it is to operate in these markets, and so um I don't know. I at this point in time, if any company is surviving, let alone thriving, like like kudos to you for for making it through through this, because you know, we even if it's a good idea, even if it makes total sense, like ease, right? Like we've seen this roller coaster that the that the the organization ease has been through, and they just went through this another, you know, fire sale, I think, and and kind of wiping out the old capital stack and and maybe breathing another round of life into it. But you know, of course people want weed delivered to them, but it's not good enough of a reason to run us run a viable business, apparently.

SPEAKER_01: 38:18

Yeah, well, I did dig into the data a little bit, and you're right, that the the the adult use regulated space did decline slightly. Um but what I will say about that is that we're still talking about$30 billion of market opportunity, and that's significant. And while the growth trajectory is not what it was as these markets were coming on, and some of them are compressing um up to you know nine, 10% in some states, and largely that has to do with price compression and kind of supply chain economics coming into play in these markets. Uh, because the amount of companies that are participating are continuing to decline, the companies, these well-run operators that we're talking about, really do continue to have good opportunities to grab market share and to really own their customers. So, I mean, it's it's a bit of a prediction for this year, but I do think that there's still growth in individual companies, unquestionably, uh, because the ones that really haven't proved that they can can pull it off in in this highly competitive, complex environment are are are leaving leaving the field. So there's there's there's growth there to to pick up what's what's been lost.

SPEAKER_03: 39:45

Growth through uh consolidation, it sounds like.

SPEAKER_01: 39:48

Yeah. Uh so we had two predictions about some state markets. We said that New York would accelerate significantly, and then we also said that Pennsylvania. Would show meaningful adult use progress. And uh we were right about New York and wrong about Pennsylvania.

SPEAKER_03: 40:07

Yeah, split the bag on that one.

SPEAKER_01: 40:09

Yeah, good old Pennsylvania. Like, there really is the great opportunity in that state for adult use cannabis.

SPEAKER_03: 40:17

Like what's the holdup? Like, why? Why why the legislature? Uh, that's why.

SPEAKER_01: 40:22

So they don't have ballot initiatives in Pennsylvania. So similar to why we are so stuck uh at the federal level, because the voters don't get to make a choice. Uh same thing in Pennsylvania. And so the legislature and the governor have been trying to work this out for honestly, it's starting to like become years, and um, it is not reconciled. There is not an adult use program in Pennsylvania yet.

SPEAKER_03: 40:48

I mean, it feels like someone should like try to fix the root of the problem and actually give the voters a voice in Pennsylvania. What just as a just as a thought?

SPEAKER_01: 41:01

Yeah. Um, all right. So structurally, from the industry's perspective, we predicted that consolidation and roll-ups would increase. I'd say that that is true. That has happened.

SPEAKER_03: 41:13

Um it's still it doesn't feel like it's been the big consolidation year yet that people have been predicting for like three years. So I I don't want to like you know detract from our win. I'll call it a win, but it's not like it's I wouldn't define it as the year of MA.

SPEAKER_01: 41:32

I I agree with that. And and I think that part of that is when you look at where some of the bright lights have been, markets like New York, uh, the regulatory environment in New York actually really encouraged uh kind of a disparate group of many operators. You can't own more than three stores, um, lots of requirements of who was going to be the first to be licensed, uh prioritizing small businesses, diverse applicants, things like that. And so what you have is an enormous amount of new small businesses entering, entering the conversation in a market like New York. The other markets that have really turned on in 2025, like Ohio, don't quite have the same um diverse range and number of of businesses. You do have more of a consolidated picture of large industry players entering entering Ohio. But you're right, there has been consolidation, but there's still plenty of independent small businesses operating in the space. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03: 42:35

Yeah, yeah. Maybe 2026 for sure.

SPEAKER_01: 42:40

Uh I had predicted that integration would become a major MA failure point this year. And uh I would say that I was either wrong about this or it just wasn't impactful enough that anyone talked about it publicly. Um, I saw some examples, but uh nothing that was a big story.

SPEAKER_03: 43:00

I yeah, I think it just goes back to the fact that we don't we didn't have enough data points. So there was an MA, there wasn't a lot, and there wasn't wasn't a focus on who was being the more successful acquisition engine, right? Yeah I I think that'll be telling is like when we start comparing how well certain companies are doing compared to others, it integrating their assets is is when we'll know that we've kind of hit that that MA season.

SPEAKER_00: 43:27

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01: 43:29

Another one, I predicted that hemp brands would be moving into regulated cannabis in 2025. And I would say that this was largely false, did not happen, but I would make this prediction again for 2026.

SPEAKER_03: 43:48

I think I think we'll see a little bit more of that. Um, at least to kind of hedge the bets and while still being hopeful that they'll they'll get the the progress on on the policy side.

SPEAKER_01: 43:58

Yeah, I think that the reason that I was making this prediction was that I was encouraging these hemp companies that have shown a lot of promise with consumers to to take the leap and to not be afraid of regulation. And so on that level, I will say Is that good advice?

SPEAKER_03: 44:16

I'm sorry. I'm just I think I think it is like you're running a business that has like fine margins and you're profitable and like things are going well, and all you see is this like hellscape of like a battlefield, and like to have well, so that's why 2025 was not the year, because there was too much opportunity outside of regulated cannabis for hemp brands to focus on that channel.

SPEAKER_01: 44:44

Um, yeah, there is still opportunity in regulated cannabis today, and now with the complexity related to policy, like I already am hearing from hemp brands that are excited and curious about how to break into the regulated market because they realize that existing in all places where cannabis consumers are makes sense. Um, it's just that 2025 wasn't the year to do it because there was an enormous amount of green space with all these new states that were opening up with actual regulatory frameworks for hemp. So it was sort of true in that what I was saying is hey, hemp brands, don't be afraid of regulation. It's coming at you and it could create opportunity. Um, that happened. And it certainly happened in places like Minnesota and Tennessee and and other states that created very specific guide rails for for hemp to become commercialized in their markets. And um, I think that we're gonna see more hemp brands uh take take a chance in regulated cannabis in 26.

SPEAKER_03: 45:46

Yeah, I think I think another uh trend that supports that is that there's this regionality that has kind of been created around the kind of hemp marketplace. So you have brands, say, in the beverage category that are doing very well, kind of say in the southeast, and some are doing very well in the Midwest. And um, that kind of gives them perhaps the focus to your point of like focusing on the areas that you're good at is to like go deeper into those markets and like being in more places where consumers might be and kind of building out the the breadth of their brand in those regions instead of you know instead of doing a shotgun effect of being like, oh, let's go to the biggest, you know, regulated cannabis markets and try to make a go of it there. No, they can focus on the regulated markets around where they're already succeeding in the kind of the open marketplace.

SPEAKER_01: 46:39

Yeah. And it a lot of these existing adult use markets that might, or even medical, still only medical-only markets that could create opportunities for hemp brands, they they see they get to be kind of the the latecomers into the market that get to take advantage of a much more mature supply chain in some of these states that that has existing co-manufacturers, existing supply chain ingredients available to them. And they've already proved that they know how to talk to a consumer. And they might have like a really robust email list of all the consumers in that state that were already buying their product direct to consumer, and now they can launch products in the dispensary channel and still stay in touch with those people and have just had a whole different way of kind of coming up than some of the regulated brands. And and when manufacturers and distributors in the regulated channel are thinking about new brands to launch in their states, they really want to see that that brand has had success somewhere else already because it means that they don't have to take as much of a chance. And and I think that the hemp brands have a really strong argument to show that they've had success with consumers so that they could have success um in this other channel that they haven't been in yet. But we'll see.

SPEAKER_03: 48:00

Yeah. I I do want to highlight what Catherine Sidman uh said is about like self-regulation, getting out ahead of the regulations coming in, because I do think this will be the year the 2026 where we do start seeing significant more regulation, be it restrictive and like just completely shutting down the category, or requiring GMP and testing. In fact, January 1st, if you're not testing at a DEA-approved lab, you're out of compliance when it comes to HAMP according to the USDA. So more regulation is coming. What it looks like in full, we don't know yet. Um, but start getting ahead of it because those will be the requirements of a mainstream category if that is your wish.

SPEAKER_01: 48:44

If that is your wish, dun dun.

SPEAKER_03: 48:48

Some people don't wish it. Some people just want to, you know, you know, progress in the in the wild, wild west and and have that be the rule set, but I just don't think that's realistic.

SPEAKER_01: 48:58

No, I mean, if you're listening to us, hopefully we have convinced you that creating mainstream category for cannabinoids is something worth doing. Uh, we've been working out of it for a long time and aren't giving up. Uh yeah. So okay, what else did we have from last year? That was, I guess, the the last one on my list of last year's predictions. So all right.

SPEAKER_03: 49:23

We did okay. That was a thorough set of predictions. Go us.

SPEAKER_01: 49:26

I know this year's predictions. I tried to be a lot like less, less predictions. So yeah, um, yeah. Although we are gonna be getting on with the cultivated guys for our um this week in cannabis live, and we'll be making some more predictions on Friday.

SPEAKER_00: 49:42

Oh, nice.

SPEAKER_03: 49:42

Oh, that's Friday.

SPEAKER_01: 49:44

Oh, I think it's this Friday.

SPEAKER_03: 49:45

Yeah, you're making me work more this week.

SPEAKER_01: 49:48

Sorry. And we were talking about data, and so I will also preview that our first episode of 2026 is going to be recorded with Sy Scott from Headset. And um, we'll be talking about data. We'll be talking about uh what what he sees um in some of these markets, um, and also some of the implications of potentially rolling back 280e on retailers. He did some really interesting financial analysis of what that could ultimately do um for a lot of large retailers. So really interesting stuff. Um yeah. And then do we want to talk about some of the news that we lost last time or we want to let it just disappear into the ether? What do you think, Ben?

SPEAKER_03: 50:34

I just blow it up in a bag and let it go.

SPEAKER_01: 50:37

Blow it up in a bag and let it go. What a good way to think about the end of the year. I'm just like, this is no, I don't I really don't care.

SPEAKER_03: 50:47

Um you know, heading into it's like this has just been such a great couple weeks of just letting life slow down a little bit. Um, you know, I I actually took my family to the movies uh over the over the break, and my son has been really into like mythology and like these stories about history. There's this great podcast for kids. If you've got kids, it's called Greeking Out. Man, he's just like totally enthralled with like Odysseus and like all this stuff that usually people learn like when they're in junior higher or high school. Uh, anyways, you know, brilliant me. I see this movie pop up on on Fandango called David, and I'm like, oh, like David and Goliath, sweet. Um, he's gonna love this, and and so gather up the family and all four of us go and like sit in this theater. And uh, it was about David and Goliath, probably for the first third of the movie, and then it goes on this whole epic journey of like David's ascension into the the king. And I'm like, oh, King David is the same as David and Goliath, and you know, it's like it was very foundational to a lot of like Christian and Judy Judaism, and just like a whole religious lesson, plus it's like, oh, I guess this was less about mythology and more about like the Bible. Um and it was a great musical, very Disney-esque, and all four of us like really enjoyed the movie, even my like five-year-old who usually gets scared in movies, and there was a lot of like you know, battles and all this kind of stuff, and she just stuck with it the whole time. So uh highly recommend. It's not from a mainstream studio, it's like this like independent studio called Angel. Um, and yeah, we're not a super religious family, but uh I found it very interesting. Now I have a much more stronger grasp of that whole timeline, like of the old testament.

SPEAKER_01: 52:46

So can I don't know what that has to do with anything, but it's the end of the year and and cannabis, would you?

SPEAKER_03: 52:53

Yeah, I I just think that we're we are kind of like on this epic journey, and we have these major battles that we're fighting, and it feels like in the moment, that feels like the moment. Like, oh, this is this is my legacy, like we're we're gonna power through this and do this. But um it just gonna it's gonna take so many of these moments like through our journey here in cannabis to kind of really stack up and and be the true epic, the true legacy that we're all gonna leave. Um but we're really making great headway. Like I always take these moments at the end of the year to think about the progress that we've made since I've entered the industry, uh, which is now 10 years ago, and how far we've come from a societal standpoint, you know, it's like it is just as normal as alcohol in our small circles. And to me, it's like the last piece is just getting the federal government to take over. And we really are getting to that point, sadly, where our contemporaries are now entering Congress. And I had a hypothesis that that's kind of what it would take to kind of push us really over. Uh, and that might unfortunately be the long prediction that is coming through. But you know what? I'm still here, I'm still building a business, I'm still fighting for it. So if that's what it took, I'll take it. Um, and all these little wins that came along the way, like we've had a part in it. And yeah, I think 2026 is going to be a pretty epic chapter of this journey.

SPEAKER_01: 54:28

Yes, the epicness. I'm I'm feeling that I get the visual, the whole thing, and I'm feeling like us on horseback, like riding riding into the sunset.

SPEAKER_03: 54:36

That was follow the light. That was the big that was the big moral of the story of David is like follow the light, be the light.

SPEAKER_01: 54:44

Yeah. And and even though we talked about how there's so much about the conversation that is sort of repeating itself through history. I think that there's this takeaway of that this has always been a hard conversation. This has always been a complicated, thorny issue. Uh, there has been disagreement for generations, and we have less disagreement now than we've ever had before. We have more people talking about this in public in the halls of Congress than we've ever had before. And I think that we're closer. Uh, but it's not gonna be easy because it just never has. It never has been. Um it's it never has been. And there's certain issues that everyone can agree on and that sail through, um, like releasing the Epstein files somehow. I think that that got like 99 votes. Uh, but cannabis is not one of those issues. Uh, but as we stick through it, as we keep resolute, progress comes. And um, yeah, let's get on horseback, y'all. Um, let's let's do it. Let's accelerate the momentum, go get some wins, all the things.

SPEAKER_03: 55:59

Saddle up on your fire horse and and charge ahead.

SPEAKER_01: 56:02

Hell yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 56:03

All right. Are we ready to sign it off? Get back to my holiday nothingness.

SPEAKER_01: 56:09

Yeah, go take off your pants and sit by the fire. Is that what I'm supposed to do? I mean, if you want. That's maybe what I'm gonna do. Um, friends, we're so grateful for you. We've had so much fun talking into our microphone and knowing that you're out there listening. It means the world. And uh, we hope that you continue to find value in the conversations that we're having, solace in the challenges, and that you don't feel alone in it, that maybe we give you some new ideas, think about something a different way, uh, because we're building the future together, all of us.

SPEAKER_03: 56:49

Yeah, thank you, thank you, thank you for for listening, for following, for commenting, for engaging. Thank you to our amazing teams at Virtosa and Wolfmeyer. It's been a heck of a year. Really proud of all of you guys and really excited to forge into the year ahead with you, riding our fire horses together. Of course, our producer, Eric Rossetti. I'm looking at you right now with your green headphones on. Thank you for everything you do for us. If you've liked this episode, if you followed us this year, please subscribe, follow, listen, share, do all the things. Until next time, folks, when it's 2026, hopefully. Uh, yeah, stay curious, stay informed, and keep your spirits high. Until next time, that's the show.

SPEAKER_01: 57:37

Thanks, everyone.