SPEAKER_05: 0:01

Hey everybody, it's Ben. What you're about to hear is a recording from This Week in Cannabis, a weekly live show that Anna Ray and I participate in, alongside an all-star panel. Jay Rosenthal and Jeremy Burke of Cultivated Media and Mark Hauser of Cannabis Musings. The show streams live every Friday morning, well almost, at 9 a.m. Pacific, noon Eastern, on YouTube at Cultivated Media, where the group breaks down the biggest cannabis hemp and policy stories shaping the week. This week's episode was recorded on Friday, December 19th, 2025, and we dove deep into, no surprise here, rescheduling. If you enjoyed this conversation, we highly recommend catching the show live and subscribing to Cultivated Media on YouTube. With that, let's get into This Week in Cannabis.

SPEAKER_03: 1:17

Ben Lars. I don't even know where to point to it. Welcome everybody. I mean, there's really nothing to talk about, so we might as well end this short. 30 seconds. Is that good?

SPEAKER_04: 1:26

Newsweek.

SPEAKER_03: 1:28

Just kidding. I have a short clip which will lead us into what we'll talk about most today. Give me one sec. Uh I don't love playing Donald Trump speaking from the resolute desk, but in this case, I will make an exception. Of the 1,461 days he'll be in office. This one I actually enjoyed listening to. Here we go.

SPEAKER_01: 1:44

Today I'm pleased to announce that I will be signing an executive order to reschedule marijuana from a Schedule One to a Schedule III control substance with legitimate medical uses. We have uh people begging for me to do this, people that are in great pain. For decades, this action has been requested by American patients suffering from extreme pain, incurable diseases, aggressive cancers, seizure disorders, neurological problems, and more, including numerous veterans with service-related injuries and older Americans who live with chronic medical problems that severely degrade their quality of life. And it's uh so really, I mean, just I can't tell you. I think I probably have received more phone calls on this on doing what we're doing. I don't think I received any calls on the other side of it.

SPEAKER_03: 2:44

Well, uh aside from taking a real shot at the anti uh prohibitionist, um, yeah, I saw you giving Donald Trump a cheer. How many of how many of those have happened over the past year?

SPEAKER_00: 2:56

It's it's it's not it's not often, but uh this is this is an exciting moment. And I just find it hilarious that he says he talks about how many calls he's received. I mean, this was basically a like good good job lobbyists and and piggy bank of policy. Um it worked, don't give up. And uh, you know, there's been an enormous lobbying effort that's gone on. Um, and it I guess it worked this time. So this is really exciting, and um I'm I'm pumped today.

SPEAKER_03: 3:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 3:31

Uh I just I want to correct, I want to correct the record slightly though. Um that, you know, to to be clear, what what you know, what Trump is basically doing, which again is a is an amazing thing, and I think it's great, but he's basically restarting the process that Biden had started and then got sidelined when Trump came to office. You know, so you know, I think I think the cred there's a lot of credit that goes to Trump here. There's also credit that goes to Biden because, you know, if if Trump started this process today, you know, de novo, you know, you couldn't, you couldn't, we wouldn't be, we're already like, you know, most of the way down the field because Trump, sorry, Biden started the process to have HHS come up with the opinion that there is a medical use, which is required for this to happen. So, you know, but credit where credit is due. Trump, you know, Trump is is restarting the process, and it looks like it, you know, has uh unless the DEA sidelines this, there's a great chance of actually happening now.

SPEAKER_04: 4:34

Jay, Jay, you should give me the metaphor you you uh texted me yesterday. I thought it was a good one.

SPEAKER_03: 4:39

This is my my well, I have an ongoing criticism of Democrats messaging around this and lots of other issues. I I find myself in the uh in the crooked media camp on this, like um, or actually the I would say more the um Karis Karis Twisher and and uh uh and and Professor Galloway. But what I what I was saying is like how Chuck Schumer doesn't say, I'm glad Biden got this to the one-yard line for Trump to run it to the end zone. Like I don't understand how they don't say that exact thing, but they didn't. Um so that's weird. But I also think, and this is to Mark's point, the fact that Biden didn't do it, I actually think pushed Trump to do it so he could say Biden didn't do it, if that makes sense. If that convoluted messaging makes sense, a lot of things he said in the night before in his messaging was how uh Biden screwed everything up and he was fixing it. This is sort of variations on a theme, it just happens to be out cannabis and an issue we care about.

SPEAKER_05: 5:34

Look, I I mean, I mean, I don't think Biden was giving the sense of urgency that that Trump has here. And and so I don't know if I would say he got it to the one-yard line, like he he got the ball game started, maybe, and and now first down. Yeah, Trump is running it down the field. But but but let me say I I don't think this is now a Republican platform, like we all know there is so much further to go in this. I do think the DEA is gonna push it forward, but I think what we have to watch out for is the rulemaking process. We've seen rulemaking at state level initiatives really muck things up, Minnesota being the most recent example, and so we have to be hawkey on this process. I think it will go through, just how smoothly is it gonna go through?

SPEAKER_00: 6:19

And there's there's been a real recent bifurcation of Trump policy to the rest of the Republican Party. There's starting to be people in Congress and the Senate that are feeling more comfortable uh thinking differently. And uh I wonder if during the rulemaking process we're gonna see a lot of Republicans pushing back on details that will really unlock opportunity.

SPEAKER_03: 6:42

Well, even in Anna Ray, even what you just said, if you stayed and weren't bored to death with the Oval Office announcement, the questions were actually about just that around healthcare and Republicans peeling off. Um, Jeremy, um, I mean this in a positive way. You've been hard to miss on this issue. You've been uh maybe next to Jake Tapper more on CNN than anybody else. Um but give us give us what they're asking and sort of your your thoughts about what's going on.

SPEAKER_04: 7:07

Yeah, I I I I think two things. I think you know what we wrote in the newsletter today, Mark, is absolutely correct. We have certainly been here before, right? I think we are taking a bit of a premature victory lap. Uh the Biden administration first put forward the rule in in 2022, and it's been three years, right? Um, but you know, all that being said, uh, and you know, I said this on you know a podcast this morning, uh Trump should be commended for doing this, right? It does take a lot of political courage for a near octogenarian teetotaling Republican president to be the one to push cannabis reform. Full stop. I mean, he should absolutely be commended. That being said, uh, you know, I personally, I mean, I haven't looked today. I've only seen the fact sheet that the White House put out. I have not seen the specific order, and so I think some questions will be answered from that. And secondly, right? Um I I, you know, the order used the word expedite, right? That is a political term, right? Like that pushes things ahead, but it's certainly not a legal term. Um, and so I don't really know what expedite means. Does it mean that the DEA will just publish the rule without an administrative hearing process? You know, I don't know. And so, you know, there's a lot of questions that are unanswered. I think, you know, the victory lap, this is a done deal, it's a little premature. However, you know, like I said last week, you know, we're we're we're a yard away, right? And and so this does need to happen and it does need to get there.

SPEAKER_05: 8:29

Um I I do want to just highlight the fact that he said that there was no opposition that called in. And I don't know. I'm like, Kevin Sabed did not sleep on this one. Like Sam is has been very active.

SPEAKER_02: 8:45

It's is it is it concerning that that no one called Trump? Well, maybe he's not telling the truth.

SPEAKER_03: 8:52

Oh yeah, he would never do that. I I we know it's total. We know it's total bullshit because we know the speaker of the house was on a call with the president expressing his displeasure with this idea. I mean, that was reported in the Wall Street, uh sorry, in the Washington Post. Yeah. People calls about it for sure. My guess is if the Speaker of the House was was uh forceful or against this, there were other Republicans he was speaking for, and he probably heard it. So um yes, I mean shocking to hear the president um bend the truth like this, but uh I think that's the thing.

SPEAKER_04: 9:26

I I I was just gonna say it's it's actually quite obvious that that a lot many in the Republican caucus are against this. I mean, 22 senators sent him a letter right before he went, or not right before, a couple hours before he went out, right? And so look, 22 isn't the full, you know, Senate composition, um, but it's a lot, right? And so clearly there is some consternation within his own party to do this. Uh the last thing I will say, the difference, you know, I'm not a political scientist, not an expert in this, but but anecdotally speaking, you know, Biden did appoint people who have expertise in in their fields to to lead agencies. And Trump thinks expertise means do they agree with me or do they not agree with me. And so look, like I think the chances uh are are less that that Biden's three-letter agency, or sorry, that Trump's three-letter agencies stonewall him on this front. Regardless of the personnel at the DEA, uh Trump commands loyalty. And and, you know, while Anna Ray's point is well taken that that there are Republicans that are now free to disagree with him more so than there were earlier this year. I I do think that this is one of those instances where Trump commanding loyalty and and trying to run the federal government like a king uh might actually work to the cannabis industry's favor here.

SPEAKER_00: 10:37

Yeah, and Politico published a great article about the lobbyists. And um, I've got it here. They they say they're tracking 26 lobbying registration uh uh registrations related to cannabis, which are up more than 60% from last year and double since Trump's first term in office. So I think that what we're seeing is that engagement in DC is working, and now we need to broaden that. Trump did the thing, and now there's a whole bunch of other things that need to happen next. But the signal is that being engaged financially in DC is worthwhile right now. And so the industry is gonna listen to that. Um, there have been a lot of investments over the years and state level programs opening up, and now it's time to open up the federal program and let's invest in the resources to get it done where it needs to happen. And if that's say banking next or whatever the next bill is or the or the rulemaking process um for schedule three, I think we're gonna see the industry step up to be able to expedite the process and keep it moving because now there's momentum.

SPEAKER_03: 11:44

It was actually that point I want to not shift to, but like what are the, I guess, immediate, medium, long term. What do we know? What don't we know? Does it affect banking on the retail level? Does it affect payments? Like, do we know anything like that, Mark? Lawyer?

SPEAKER_02: 11:58

No, I mean it won't it won't, it doesn't change any of that. You know, again, the only two things this actually definitely changes are 280E no longer applies. 280 doesn't go away. 280 still exists as a tax code provision, it just no longer applies. Um, whether it applies, you know, whether the IRS then um allows it to apply retroactively is unknown. Um and it, you know, and in theory, it opens up research, more research into it. But again, you know, that's research that requires DEA licensing, you know, DEA permitting in order to skip that research done. So, you know, and with the federal government having pulled back so much research, you know, funding in the US, um, you know, it's a little bit of a uh, you know, it's a little hollow. Um, my concern is that you've got, you know, we talk about what the rulemaking will be. I mean, there's not a ton of rulemaking. It's you know, basically moving it from from one place on the schedule to another. But what I worry about is does Congress try to, you know, there's a bill out there to to um, I forgot what it's called, but basically say 280E would still apply.

SPEAKER_05: 13:10

Yeah, it's Senate Bill 471, uh no deductions for marijuana businesses act. Yeah, so you know, and we need to kill that.

SPEAKER_02: 13:17

Yeah, in theory, you know, even if the if the House and Senate pass that, in theory, Trump could veto it. But you know, but it we you know, nothing is settled. Um, and that's you know, that's where the concern is. And also just, you know, the other thing to be worried about is is the um and where the the energy should be is focusing on you know the lawsuits that are going to be filed by you know by Sam. Um, you know, what is it, safe at safe alternatives to marijuana? You know, there will be lawsuits, and so that's gonna be that to me is where the energy should be. You know, safe banking is is uh is is this red herring to me, but um I I can I can also I'm I'm not gonna break the news, but I can share a very confirmed rumor.

SPEAKER_04: 14:03

I mean thinking through whether I should say this. Well, I I hear I hear that uh uh Sam, Smart Buddha's marijuana is is hiring Bill Barr uh to fight this. And so uh Bill Barr is is a serious, obviously former attorney general, former Trump attorney general, who has a pretty terrible relationship with the president, but uh he's he's a serious attorney. And so, like, Mark's point, absolutely true. There's gonna be many, many legal challenges against this. The industry needs to uh you know put on a united front if they want this to happen and they want to beat back some of those challenges.

SPEAKER_05: 14:35

I I just like what's the lawsuit? I mean, what's what's the grounds for a lawsuit? Like the the federal government themselves have proven for decades that cannabis has medical applications and that it's not as highly addictive as other substances. Like they're it's definitively the right move. So I hope they waste a ton of money doing this.

SPEAKER_03: 14:56

Yeah, well, I think the thing with that is like if it's if something is stalled or or or imp or rulemaking is delayed until such time as blah blah blah. Um because I think one thing we all know is that nothing is imminent, right? Expedite, I think that's the word Germany's talking about. Like that word literally nothing. Um certainly in the federal government context, it doesn't mean anything. And so fast action is certainly not what will happen. Um but I am interested, Anna Ray and Ben, um, something we mentioned before we came live, is certainly before this rescheduling conversation, while we were in Las Vegas, the beginning of December, it was a lot about hemp and the rule and the sort of ban of hemp that was coming into effect in 300 at that point. 60 days now it's you know 340 something. Like, what is the sort of hemp derived world talking about in relationship to this? And is there any sort of are people reading tea leaves um of what the president either said or what the highlights that are coming out are talking about that we should sort of have our ear towards?

SPEAKER_05: 15:58

Yeah, there there's been a lot of talk and and it's very noisy and it's all over the place. And so I'll just kind of give you my take. And and I think what the general sentiment is is that this definitively kind of opened the door to have further discussions about what is hemp. And even the president himself, who is is not uh a big fan of intoxicants, was kind of pretty loose about like what you know what was going to be allowable kind of in the future. But um, he said we need we need clear clear guidelines. Um, he did talk about ratios, which I know is an old talk talk track of of the hemp industry in the past. That's how we ended up with these one to 20 or 1 to 15 ratios, which I just think is kind of problematic because it always opens the door for people to work around in in loopholes, so to speak. But if anything, I just it was really interesting to see hemp get so much airplay, and and then in reading Natalie uh Fertig's uh post, which great to have her back. Natalie, we missed you. It's great to have you back on the cannabis beat. Um, anyways, uh the the the fact that this was actually going to be all about CBD and hemp, and then schedule three kind of snuck in afterwards, and so it was more of a hemp announcement than it was going to be a schedule three announcement, which I found really interesting. But uh going back to the winners or or the people that deserve some accolades, uh Howard Kessler and and Kim Rivers of True Leaf. So nice to see Kim actually get a win um after being dealt with a loss in Florida last year.

SPEAKER_03: 17:35

I yes. And they win every day with the quasi-monopoly in Florida as well. So, like, I'm not nobody's crying for Kim Rivers, but um I appreciate the sentiment too.

SPEAKER_02: 17:45

She's been called on a number of crying a river for oh that's good.

SPEAKER_03: 17:49

Did I say that? No, no, I just don't. Um Anna Ray, what's the you on this front?

SPEAKER_00: 17:56

And so in in the information that the White House put out, they specifically talked about 15% of seniors in the US have used CBD in the last year. Um, and then in that same paragraph, they talk about the importance of THC as well as a part of a full spectrum experience for CBD. And so I think that's the other thing that gives some hope to uh those in the hemp space that there will be more than 0.4 milligrams of THC allowed, um, which is what's currently suggested in the language from the appropriations bill. Um, does that mean that they're going to make carve-outs for form factors or that they're going to allow adult versus medical products to be allowed? None of that is insinuated in the language, but I think that the simple inclusion of THC into the CVD discussion, along with the inclusion of the term full spectrum, provides some optimism for those that are searching for it.

SPEAKER_02: 18:57

Yeah. I want to say, oh, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03: 19:02

I want to shift when you're done. I want to shift to uh another realm of this.

SPEAKER_02: 19:06

Just just, you know, I I I read the whole thing a little more narrowly, um, which again, I could be totally wrong, but um but but to me, it was the whole point of it was about CBD. It wasn't about um, it wasn't about THC. And so, you know, and and so me, you know, I mean that's the plain read of it. And so it's a question of do you deep dive more deeply into it? The other, you know, so it's it's I would say it's ambiguous. We none of us know, but to me, you know, the one the difference though is that uh to you know to do anything with respect to hemp with respect to THC and T C B D and all of that requires Congress to act. Whereas at least with the with the rescheduling of cannabis, that's purely an administrative process. And so it is um the The path is very different. And I think that that's something that that gets a little sort of mixed up here is because there is now a law, you know, there is a federal law that now redef, you know, defines Hampa Sect a different way. That needs to be changed. That's going to open up, you know, to reflect what Trump is trying to get out of this executive order. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 20:22

But but Trump is saying that he is open-minded, even and even though earlier I was saying that Republicans are choosing a different path than some Trump policy in some ways. Um, it is likely that there will be a continued discussion about what was the hemp ban in on November 12th. And um this policy document put out from the White House can be um interpreted in a lot of different ways that I think could help the policy discussion that Congress is inevitably going to have maybe for this next CR that's coming up or for few future farm bill or appropriations discussions, wherever they may be.

SPEAKER_05: 20:59

I think that's the important part, right? Because like what happened in November was felt very definitive. And a lot of the medicine that became outlawed because of that are things like Charlotte's Web and the medicine that that Charlotte Figgy uh consumed. And it was so incredible to see Paige Figgy standing there and potentially even walking away with a memento, where like what a moment. And and in that moment, realizing that oh, we are reopening uh this this hemp consideration. And so it was a win for the hemp industry in the fact that this conversation is still very much open.

SPEAKER_03: 21:38

Um, could I shift? Yes, all of that. And I want to shift to like uh I mean, Jeremy, probably we all probably got thousands of emails to put these put these quotes in our newsletters and talk about them. But there is there even in day one, there was actual business news, and we're gonna save our predictions for I think it's January 2nd when we'll come live and predictions 2026. But if deal making is not one of your predictions, I think it will be by January 2nd. Like, Jeremy, we've heard a lot of about like people making comments like this will open up the deal flow considerably. And then I think Tilray made an announcement. I would expect certainly a number of the other Canadian companies put out statements about what it means for them and their sort of related businesses in the US. Like, there's gonna it's gonna be a mad scurry in January.

SPEAKER_04: 22:24

Yeah, thanks for uh thanks for front running my prediction, Jay. I appreciate that. Um, I I I I but but no, the the point the point is absolutely correct. I think it it was no accident that Tilray, they sort of spun up a Tilray USA medical division and and you know put that on the news wire as soon as the announcement came. There's a little bit of you know stop price engineering there, I'm sure, that goes into it. Um but no, absolutely. I mean, I think I think this beyond a symbolic move, once it actually hits getting rid of the 280 tax, like there's a lot of free cash flow unlocked for these businesses to reinvest, create jobs, grow, pursue acquisitions, and do all the things that normal emerging sectors can do. And so I think it's gonna be a really exciting time to cover it. Um, the other quick piece I'll say on that is because of its NASDAQ listing, Tilray functions as a sort of you know public interest index in the cannabis sector because it's kind of a company that people know. People remember the run-up in in 2018, 2019, uh, and and they're able to buy it on Robinhood and retail trading apps. And so, you know, even though Tilray is far from the best way to play US incremental cannabis reform, uh, it is sort of an index for how much people are interested in. And the stock went up, I think, almost 50% before you know people sold the news a little bit. And so uh it's it's pretty fascinating to see that. And uh, you know, you can watch and see. Like, I know that I'll get requests for media appearances when I see Till Ray stock going up. And so that's kind of the way I think about it.

SPEAKER_03: 23:57

Yeah, Jeremy gets those calls now. Those were I I had a I had to explain the stock run up in 2018. And Jeremy knows my experience with um talking about stocks. It was also during a holiday just like this, where like nobody was in town. They were like, Jay, you seem to know something. I was like, I I really don't.

SPEAKER_04: 24:11

I really don't. Neither do I, to be honest. But uh I mean my um Yeah, my corporate financing fast would probably be sad that I said that actually.

SPEAKER_03: 24:19

So you gotta take the Columbia sweatshirt off.

SPEAKER_02: 24:24

I think it was, you know, I I mean, I've always said and maintained that that you know, the the cannabis stock prices bear a little relation to reality um and fundamentals. And I think you know, the run-up and then crash in the past few days is is a good example of that. I mean, you know, yes, I mean the these companies will benefit at you know down the road once once the res, you know, uh what I would say is they should have they should pop when the scheduling at rescheduling actually takes effect. Until then, it's you know, it's all um it's all just sort of prediction. But um, you know, a lot of a lot of the crash, from what I the best I could tell, occurred on uh two days ago when um when or yesterday, when if you look at the exact moment when the when the when the release occurred, and um and if you were reading the chatter on you know on the various social media among uh cannabis traders, cannabis stock traders, it was because everybody was expecting there was a rumor that it would also cover banking, and it didn't. And for whatever reason, um cannabis stock traders are very highly, highly focused on safe banking, thinking that it will be the it will be the savior of this industry. I I'm not being hyperbolic. There it really they are so focused on that point, and when it wasn't in there, they sold. Um it was very odd. It was very odd.

SPEAKER_04: 25:53

I think there is some there there may be some some. I mean, I this is a little bit conspiratorial, but but you know, it's MSOS is is very thinly traded, it's a lot of retail. Uh, you know, the the bigger funds that are in there uh have a broad capability to manipulate the market um based on you know where the options are priced. And so, you know, I think I think there may have been, Mark, to your point, like it's it's certainly possible there is some of that going on that some hedge funds uh are trading this in a way that squeezes out retail. Um because yeah, to your point, like you know, you don't see a 27% drop on a sell the news event. I I don't think I have not personally seen that.

SPEAKER_03: 26:34

Well, Jerry, you're about to get some calls from the SEC.

SPEAKER_00: 26:37

Uh they can take uh even though even though safe banking does not provide an explicit lit uh like uh pathway to uplisting onto a US exchange right now, I do think that that those cannabis investors think that that is the next thing that will happen following banking. And and from a stock perspective, uplisting will be one of the biggest unlocks for the cannabis industry, absolutely unquestionably. Uh, because look at at Tilray compared to all of the US operators that are listed in Canada and what their stock looks like. It's just it's night and day.

SPEAKER_03: 27:21

Yeah, this is all very bad news for the Toronto Stock Exchange and the um Canadian Securities Exchange. They must be uh they're looking for their next wave of emerging businesses, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_05: 27:29

But is that safe banking that will allow it to get up listed, or is it gonna be descheduling? Because, like, I mean, porn is legal, but like porn companies still have hard times finding banking.

SPEAKER_00: 27:40

It's actually NASDAQ policy. So it's it's internal NASDAQ compliance and New York stock exchange. Each of the stock exchanges have their own, just like Visa and MasterCard, have their own terms and conditions uh in order to participate, and theirs don't allow uh US illegal companies today.

SPEAKER_05: 28:00

Uh but won't the company still be illegal under like schedule three with safe banking? Like schedule three plus safe banking doesn't mean legal, like we're still an illegal enough industry.

SPEAKER_02: 28:08

That's that's why it will be unlikely to actually sway the New York Stock Exchange and the Nasdaq. Yeah, it's not impossible, but it it is it is not it's not as in the bag as well.

SPEAKER_03: 28:19

Well, maybe more money talks, I guess. Maybe more directly, will it sway Visa and MasterCard?

SPEAKER_02: 28:26

Nah, I I mean, well, maybe.

SPEAKER_03: 28:29

Well, can I can I do shameless self-promotion? Is it seamless self-promotion time? Because we have an event coming up on Monday. Derby's leading a conversation about uh banking implications of cannabis rescheduling. What's next? It's with our partners at Shield Compliance. We'll also have um Scott uh Muskell and Brian Barrish, uh Scott from a law firm in Boston and and Brian certainly from uh Duchy. And so we will have a conversation about what it actually does mean. That's on Monday. You can register on our LinkedIn page, many of you are watching there now. But I think it is, I mean, there's lots of prognostication or um wish casting of what this does mean for banking, sort of for for up listing and listing in the US, but also more sort of grassroots. Does it mean that we will be able to take credit cards at dispensaries? Like that is a legitimate question. It doesn't.

SPEAKER_00: 29:18

I'll answer it right now.

SPEAKER_05: 29:22

I just think the title needs to be changed every little bit. It's like we got rescheduling. What's next?

SPEAKER_03: 29:28

There we go. Sure.

SPEAKER_06: 29:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 29:31

I mean, I it is it is like, I mean, this is uh this is uh um I I don't want to use the bad term, but but opinions are like blank, everybody has one. And uh certainly if you are on cannabis LinkedIn or cannabis Twitter, everybody has an opinion. Any that you saw this week that were interesting or unique? Anyone?

SPEAKER_05: 29:57

That's a good question. So okay, I I didn't get to read it all, but Rick Fox did a did a post today that really dives into the dark side of schedule three and big pharma and the implications that that has on cannabis business. And I I think there's just a lot of prognostication on what that means. And I I'm not too worried about it because you know we've been a schedule a schedule one uh industry operating alongside the federal government, and and now we're schedule three. Um, but big pharma getting involved, I just don't think there's a lot of crossover because the plant is so dynamic, there's so many cannabinoids, and anything that we know about pharmaceuticals, it's highly tuned, highly repeatable, and I just don't see a lot of crossover. Like Marinol and epidielics are very different than the broader cannabis industry.

SPEAKER_02: 30:45

Yeah. Yeah. And the cost of getting you, I mean, the cost of getting FDA approval for a drug is millions of dollars in years of testing. Why would a pharmaceutical company do that for unless they have a very specific indication, just as you're saying that? That's why I think it's it's it's a um it's a straw, uh, what's a straw man? Is that the right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 31:09

If I totally unlock is is 280e, I'm I'm waiting for someone to tell me when when we can take 280e penalty off the books. And and when I get to start working on re-engine reengineering chart of accounts with cannabis executives to look at what like the future really looks like without 280e and and and a world where cultivators don't need to be shoving every single expense into cost of goods sold to try to deal with taxes and like get to look at financials that compare to other kind of manufacturing-based industries in a way that we can compare them because the financial reports that cannabis businesses create, while compliant in their own right, do not follow the same rules that that other spaces use for general accounting practices, uh, because they're needing to do all of this complicated tax maneuvering. So I'm I'm excited about that. I don't know if if anybody has really said when when we get to when we get to turn off the 280 E penalty, but I'm I'm excited to understand when that is.

SPEAKER_05: 32:16

Well and and that's why I I really imploring people that the next step is keep a very close eye on rulemaking because who knows what's going to happen during that, and then Senate Bill 471. Uh, let's we have to make sure that doesn't exit committee and and go through the process.

SPEAKER_03: 32:32

Or get tacked onto some other bill unrelated.

SPEAKER_05: 32:35

Right. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 32:36

Which is a bigger risk, I think. Because that especially something the president can't veto, because relying on a presidential veto is a fool's errand, at least on a single bill in this case. I um I was having some fun with Sora this week. Do you want to see what I came up with? That's the Donald J. Trump ball uh at the White House. Of course, it's gold. Um I was quite impressed with the uh AI part of this that it got the reflection of the other side of the room, which is you know pretty good. Mark, you want me to frame this one?

SPEAKER_00: 33:06

It's so good. It is so good. Will someone please make that and and send it to all of us? I I will take a bong hit on uh this uh this live podcast of the bong if someone will send it to me.

SPEAKER_03: 33:18

We could just turn that into a CAD drawing into and send it off to Anna Ray, you will be rewarded handsomely.

SPEAKER_02: 33:24

I I think the right word is it's a Shonda.

SPEAKER_03: 33:27

It's a Shonda, yeah. You're right. Yeah, it is it is, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 33:31

For those of you, it's a disgrace. I'm bad. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03: 33:34

Uh the promotion time of the show, Anna Ray, Ben, anything to promote aside from our uh our prediction show in January?

SPEAKER_00: 33:42

Just come come check us out at High Spirits Podcast, um, high spirits pod, Spotify, Apple, YouTube, uh, LinkedIn, all the places. Awesome.

SPEAKER_02: 33:52

Mark?

SPEAKER_03: 33:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 33:53

Uh subscribe to Canvas Musings on Substack.

SPEAKER_03: 33:57

You will be smarter if you do. Jeremy, any appearances we should know about?

SPEAKER_04: 34:02

No. Uh, I think that's it. I think uh on Tuesday I'm gonna go hibernate for for a week and then uh, you know, so everyone's not too sick of me, and then you know, we'll see you all in January.

SPEAKER_05: 34:13

I think everyone should do that. I think I think everyone is due for a little bit of a break and just taking some time off. That's what I'm gonna do. Totally. I couldn't agree with that. It's been a year.

SPEAKER_03: 34:22

Our newsletter will go out one or two times next week. That's gonna be up to Jeremy. Jeremy's got a webinar on Monday about cannabis banking and the age of rescheduling, although Anna Ray just gave away the punchline. Um, and um on January 29th, Jeremy and I and the team from Gotham will be um at the Green Space at WNYC in New York uh for the high rise, a new event we have launched. Uh so if you go to thehighrise.nyc, you can apply to attend. We will see, well, 150 of our best friends there uh at the end of January. Anna Ray, Ben, and Mark, if you can get to New York, let us know because we will welcome you with uh open New York arms um to that event. And thank you, everybody, for tuning in. Uh I can't believe I'm gonna say thank you, President Trump, uh, for signing the executive order. We will unpack it all in 2026. We'll have our prediction show on January 2nd. Anna Ray, Jeremy, Mark, Ben, have a good weekend, a good holiday, and we will see you in the new year.

SPEAKER_02: 35:22

Thank you.