Marianne Cursetjee: 0:00

Contracts are, of course, important, but what matters more is what's behind it. Is there actually intent, is there actually capacity, is there actually knowledge?

AnnaRae Grabstein: 0:21

Hey everybody, Welcome to episode 105 of High Spirits. I'm your host, Annarie Grabstein, and we're recording Tuesday, September 16th 2025. I am flying solo as host today. Ben is on the move, but I've also been on the move. Last Wednesday I was in Santa Rosa for the Hall of Flowers event, which is really Northern California's premier retail and brand trade show. And then I zipped east to Jersey City for the opening of an incredible new dispensary called Lady L Cannabis. I actually helped them get their license three years ago and they are finally open after a very long journey. So big congrats to the team at Lady L. And then I had the opportunity to stop into New York City and go to Revelry, which is Manhattan's brand and retailer trade show, where our guest also was so excited to share some things about that experience with you all. And I'm finally back in my home studio in Sonoma County to record today, so happy to be joining all of you and really excited for a show today with an incredible guest who's going to share some wisdom with us about brand expansion and growth. So we'll get to that in just a second News for today California cuts cannabis excise tax.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 1:46

Finally, the lawmakers in California approved a measure to reduce the cannabis excise tax from 19% down to 15%, starting October 1st. It will be in effect through June 30th of 2028. It still needs to be signed by the governor, but it seems inevitable at this point. Governor Gavin Newsom had said put something in front of me and I will sign it. So the legislature has spoken and we're on our way in California to bringing the taxes back down to what they were before. Incremental wins, guys. We're just getting it back to where it was. I know most folks who are listening to this probably want the taxes to be a lot lower, and that is a journey for tomorrow.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 2:33

Over in Texas, the governor is also taking action on banning hemp-derived THC for people under 21 years of age and changing definitions of hemp and intoxicating cannabinoids. The governor issued an executive order mandating these changes after failed legislation and multiple sessions, special sessions. That happened after the legislative session ended. And then a little bit of bright news New York's legal cannabis market crossed over into $2 billion of retail sales, including over $1 billion so far in 2025. Go, New York. We're really excited to see that market coming on. So that's it for our news update today, and we're going to go right into our guest.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 3:17

Today's guest is Marianne Kersage. She is the CEO and founder of Alibi Cannabis. Marianne didn't plan on building a cannabis brand. She came from the worlds of finance, business and e-commerce, but after a breast cancer diagnosis in 2015, she experienced the plant's healing potential firsthand and decided to make cannabis her life's work. Together with co-founders, she built Alibi into a premium Oregon brand known for high quality indoor flower and bold, elegant branding, and eight years later, she's leading the company into new markets like New York, while staying grounded in the values of adventure, authenticity and purpose. We wanted to have Marianne on because, even though we've talked about brand expansion and market entry before, every journey is unique and Alibi's story offers a different perspective on what it really takes to grow across markets. I'm excited to welcome Marianne today. Welcome Marianne.

Marianne Cursetjee: 4:12

Thanks, anna Rae, it's great to be here.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 4:14

Yeah, it's so nice to finally meet you. I feel like, as women in cannabis, we sometimes travel in these same circles, but the truth is I don't know if we've ever shaken hands before, so I'm really glad that we get to know each other better today on air with all our friends. Yes, and hopefully IRL soon, absolutely IRL. All the time I'm all about that, yeah, so let's just jump in. What was the turning point? From patient to entrepreneur?

Marianne Cursetjee: 4:41

It really sometimes in the dark moments, which of course there are in cannabis. I blame it on on chemo brain, because going through chemo and radiation it has this toll on your body where you're kind of this permanent brain fog. And I was just finishing up radiation when we came across this piece of property and we're like sure let's buy it, this piece of property, and we're like sure let's buy it. So you know, 10 years later it's kind of crazy that it's turned into what it is, but it it. It was an opportunity, that timing was just right, everything lined up, the cards were just late, you know, laid out the way it should be. I was finishing up treatment from cancer and I was at a place in my life where we had I didn't have a job to go back to had some time and Oregon was just legalizing. So I wanted to take what I had experienced in terms of the healing power of the plant and share that message and it just kind of all worked out.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 5:39

Amazing, and I'm curious why. Alibi it doesn't seem like it's a word that connects with the journey to me when I first hear it. So tell me about what does the brand name tell? What is the story there?

Marianne Cursetjee: 5:52

So it's interesting because there are a lot of health and wellness brands and I specifically didn't want to be pigeonholed as being a pharmaceutical replacement we are not going after like the pure health and wellness, but that that mindset informs all the products that we developed. I'm I feel like cannabis can really be life changing for more than just a specific medical need today, but really life changing and and part of the things that you do every day so the things that I do every day not that I do them every day, but you know the things that I think every day so the things that I do every day not that I do them every day, but you know the things that I think are fun or going on hikes, or exploring adventures with friends, or going to shows, all of those things that make life fun and exciting, alibi's there for it, and that's that's really what we're about, because if you're, if you're feeling better and feeling connected with your friends and your community, then all of those adventures just create a beautiful life.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 6:49

Yeah, beauty is something that, when I saw your booth at Revelry, really stuck out at me. The packaging, the imagery it's bright, it's colorful, it feels refined. Has it always been that way? Has there been an evolution of the brand over time since you started? What's that been like?

Marianne Cursetjee: 7:07

There's been absolutely an evolution. We started off, we hired a designer I don't know, it's probably six or eight years ago now to come up with our first logo, and we used it for a little bit but nobody really liked it, and so then we came up with another one. It just sort of evolved over time and then we came across this imagery that we're using now. That was based on the work of an artist in LA, and I actually met her through a women in cannabis event. So it's like these events are useful and powerful, and the moment I saw the image I was just completely struck like that embodies what we're trying to do. So I contacted her, we, we bought it and and it's ours and we transitioned to that.

Marianne Cursetjee: 7:53

But it's it's really about celebrating the beauty that we all have inside of us, and we're using the butterflies as a representation of that. The butterflies in this beautiful sexy fairy, because it's like a butterfly and you have a cocoon. You have butterflies in this beautiful sexy fairy because it's like a butterfly and you have a cocoon. You have walls that we each, you know, build to protect ourselves and to keep ourselves safe from the outside world, but I think cannabis helps break down those walls so we can have true connections with our community and our family and our friends and really explore all the adventures that life has.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 8:25

That's what Alibi is about. Yeah, I love that. Butterfly is such a cool metaphor for transformation too, and I often will say that the one thing that, as entrepreneurs in cannabis, that we have to be ready for is that it just never stops changing. Reinvention seems to be the one truth that I can trace across my career, so I like kind of the double, the double entendre and the meeting, both for the consumer but also for the journey of what we're going through, which is what we're excited to talk about today. Great so Oregon, really, where you got started. Let's talk about what you aspire for, alibi, to be. What, what's, what's the path? Where are you today? Where have you been? Regional, national, global? What excites you right now?

Marianne Cursetjee: 9:11

Well, right now, um, a hundred percent of our attention is on New York. New York, We've it's literally taken us five years to get here, which which seems crazy, but it's um, you know, people talk about well, which markets next, next, or how are you going to expand, and all of those things are important, but for me it's about the community and the connection, and so I started deliberately working on building out my New York network five years ago, and it was through genuine connection with people and actually showing up and participating. So they need something. Hey, let me make an intro for you, or hey, can I help you with that Just showing up and being part of the community so that when the product and the brand was ready for it, that we had the network and we could succeed.

Marianne Cursetjee: 9:58

So it's very much a long journey, at least for me. That's the way I choose to do it. Other people have their own approach, which is fine, but I like to do it from a foundation that's strong and has a lot of depth to it, so that we can set up for success the best that we possibly can.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 10:13

Well, let's talk about how you actually pulled it off. In Oregon you are a cultivator, and in New York you chose a different path. Can you explain what that path is?

Marianne Cursetjee: 10:26

Absolutely so. With expansion, there's typically three different ways to do it. There's, you know, way more variations of it, but one path is to own your supply chain. So we could have bought property, gotten a license and set ourselves up as cultivators in New York. That comes with its own set of challenges in license, like there's just so many of whether we even would get a license. But overall, my take on that is that if you look at the numbers nationwide, oregon currently is licensed for enough canopy that we could supply the entire US without having anybody else growing anything, and so to me it doesn't make any sense to try to invest in infrastructure that really shouldn't be there, if you know when descheduling or rescheduling or whatever, when that happens. And so I've wanted to.

Marianne Cursetjee: 11:19

Strategically, we, you know we're in a. We have limited resources, so we have to make the most of what we have, and the way that we do that is to partner with a partner farm, and you asked about setting up the deal and how the deal works. Once you get into finding a partner, you can either choose a licensing deal or a co-manufacturing deal and just to kind of. You know my take on those and everybody has their own perspective on them. But a co-manufacturing is where you just pay somebody to make your product for you but, like I, would be responsible for everything having to do with it, and a licensing deal is that where we're in it together. We license the brand but the partner is responsible for the manufacturing and sales and that's the deal that we have.

Marianne Cursetjee: 12:04

So I found a partner who is fully integrated on the supply chain. New York they can't own retail, but they've got cultivation, processing, sales and distribution and it's been great. The first time we met them I truly felt like we were family and like we could get our spouses and our kids and just go hang out in the backyard and have a barbecue together. I felt the very similar ethos, similar approaches to business, similar approaches to life and just I think that that helped make it a lot easier. Not that that's a replacement for having discipline on the financial side and being able to execute in product development, but it was a good first step.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 12:49

Sure, and I'm definitely familiar with licensing deals and it's always a bit of a give and take about what each side is going to bring to the table and how you're going to support it. You talked about the partner doing the cultivation and the production, getting the product to market and even doing the sales. How do you see yourself kind of involved in the success of the brand in New York and how you do that in partnership with someone else that has so much control over the product through the manufacturing?

Marianne Cursetjee: 13:22

Yeah.

Marianne Cursetjee: 13:23

So this has been a learning journey for me and for them, because I really want to be a part of influencing how the brand is represented in the market, and so what we've done is we have provided resources, so we take the marketing side of it, so we do all of the brand ambassadors, we do the pop-ups, we do trainings, so we're very involved after the sale has been made, trying to educate the bud tenders and talk to consumers. So that is very much my lane and ours as a brand owner. That that's the part we 100% do. And then we collaborate with our partner in terms of product development and making sure that the products that we develop and have in mind fit the market and that they have the capacity to make them. So we do that together and their success is our success and it's mutual. So my success is their success. Like we work together, we have the same goal, and I think that piece is really important as you negotiate contracts, so that you're rolling in the same direction. You have the same goals, you can support each other.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 14:29

Yeah, I really appreciate that and I like that you seem to be both collaborative, but having clarity around your lanes and that's such an important part of the deal process is getting the intentions and clarity around who's doing what. I'm curious from a capital perspective, new York is notoriously expensive. It's expensive to do business there, real estate is expensive, labor is expensive, marketing is complicated and expensive, and I'm wondering how you thought about making an investment in New York and if you brought in outside capital to do so, or if this is something that's funded from existing operations or you and your partners are doing it. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Marianne Cursetjee: 15:11

Yeah, for sure. So it's definitely an investment, and I had put together a high-level budget of a certain amount of money and I said six months and this amount of money and we should be able to be cashflow positive and we actually we were cashflow positive last month. So that's after being we did a soft launch in April, so we beat our six month projections, cashflow positive and it's it's been great. But, yes, it definitely takes an investment.

Marianne Cursetjee: 15:44

The investment for us was in packaging. We had to redesign our packaging because New York has different compliance rules than Oregon does, so we had to completely redo our graphics and that took some time and some investment. Then there's you know the basic things of buying packaging. Fortunately, my arrangement with my partner is that they provide all the input materials, so I didn't have to go out and buy flour and all of that. They provided that and then we split the profits at the end. So that's been great. The other investments that I've made is I invested in PR and I invested in my field marketing team, so those are both kind of upfront costs that were really important to build the brand.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 16:28

Yeah, so field marketing team Revelry what did you think? I assume that your field marketing folks were the people that I talked to at your booth last weekend, and how is it working? What do you think about the market? What did you think about Revelry? What did you see Revelry?

Marianne Cursetjee: 16:45

was so much fun. I wish that. I wish I had more time there, because we were so inundated at the booth. People were so excited about the brand and wanting to learn more, and so I really was focused on on sharing the alibi message. But there's some really cool brands and some people doing some amazing things, so I love the energy.

Marianne Cursetjee: 17:06

It's very different being on the East Coast compared to the West Coast. You know, you're in California, so you know the California stories and Oregon and even Washington are very doom and gloom, like the market saturation and people are struggling and the tax situation, all of those things. But New York is fun and it's exciting to see people appreciate what we've been trying to build in terms of the look and feel of and the vibe that we want to create with Alibi. So I think it really resonates. It's really fun being in a room where people are excited about opening up dispensaries and how can we partner and how can we have events that genuinely connect with the community. So I'm really thrilled we can talk about a couple of events that we're sponsoring and just like those are examples of the energy and it's completely night and day.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 17:57

Sure. Well, let's dive into Revelry a little bit more. These events are really designed to help brands and retailers transact together, and it's expensive and it's complicated with all the logistics, and so the hope is that you get to meet IRL with retailers who potentially place orders on the spot. I hear that that was happening a lot on Friday and that people were placing orders with brands, were really making new additions to their menus, kind of across the board, and that it was really successful for the brands that were there. Is that what you guys experienced?

Marianne Cursetjee: 18:32

Absolutely. I haven't seen our final numbers yet, but I know at one point through Friday one of our sales reps had written 30 orders. So that's just one of the sales reps. One know one of five of the sales reps. So I know a lot of business was being done and it was great because we were able to. It's a very efficient way to connect with with buyers and bartenders, people at the shop, because they're all coming around looking for something new and exciting and so we're able to give out samples and talk to them and share about our brand vision and yeah, so we definitely transacted a lot of business. We got into some shops that we've been trying to get into for months and it just took that IRL part of them actually seeing and having a conversation. So I I love connecting and talking with people and it's and just building that community.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 19:26

And to put 30 orders in perspective, how many retail stores are there that are open in New York right now?

Marianne Cursetjee: 19:32

400 and something. Yeah, oh, there's that many Give or take.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 19:37

Okay, yeah, so I mean, but that's like close to 10% of the market that you touched there. That's incredible. And so you said that you're talking about other events. Say more.

Marianne Cursetjee: 19:48

Yeah. So you said that you're talking about other events. Say more, yeah. So we've been fortunate enough to be partnered with some really cool dispensaries that are doing some awesome things in their community. So there's a couple of things I'm really excited about. One of them is out on Long Island and it's called Unity Fest. It's happening this coming weekend and it's a big event sponsored by the Long Island Cannabis Community and it's really just a big community event, but we're able to show up and it's going to be a big party just celebrating cannabis, but done in a great way to build community. So we're sponsoring the. There's a skateboard competition, so we've provided a custom skate deck and these things like that don't ever happen in Oregon.

Marianne Cursetjee: 20:27

Oregon's rules around cannabis events are very strict and the community just isn't as large Like there's not as much population here. So we there aren't events like that in Oregon, so it's it's really exciting to be part of that. But the other event that I'm even more excited about is happening in October. It's a weed women and wellness event. So we're sponsoring it and I'm speaking to talk about how cannabis can help with trauma. It's not a big, splashy event, it's more of a small, intimate event, but I think it's it's these conversations about how cannabis can help us both heal from our own personal trauma and then bring us together as as a community and as humans. And that's what I'm really excited about having these conversations, because that's how we make the world a better place.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 21:17

I love that and I think what you're talking about is bringing an authentic message out into the world. I'm curious how, as you're thinking about marketing your brand, how you think that that connects actually to stores carrying alibi, or consumers choosing alibi, or or if it doesn't at all.

Marianne Cursetjee: 21:34

It's been challenging because there are so many opportunities to sponsor events that are not necessarily tied to a dispensary, but we've been really focused on only sponsoring events either physically located at a dispensary or or very tightly closed, you know, with it. So the trauma-informed workshop is at a dispensary, it's in their event space, it's at a dispensary, so we're going to be talking to, so the audience is going to be their customers, so it's people who already are familiar with cannabis, at least superficially. I don't know what everybody's path and journey is, but they're showing up to a dispensary for an educational workshop, so that kind of pre-qualifies them and because we are one of the best-selling brands at the dispensary, we're able to connect the dots. But you're totally right, the other, more community-based events, it's a longer-term play in terms of connecting the dots to driving sales. If they're really expensive, we typically don't participate because we're a small brand, I don't have these big, massive marketing budgets and we have to be mindful about choosing where we invest about choosing where we invest.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 22:50

Yeah, Like we talked earlier about how you met your designer at a women in cannabis event, and and I think that those are powerful stories about how sometimes, when you go to a networking event that doesn't feel like it might have a high ROI, you end up getting to transact with someone. And and I love those stories because it is so important, especially when we're in these, in these groups, like like a women's event, or if there's, like I see, lots of meetups of card licensees in New York and other things like that Figuring out how we can not just support each other but actually transact, I think is one of the things that really pushes the needle with everyone in their businesses and it's important to see that, as opposed to just coming together to commiserate right.

Marianne Cursetjee: 23:32

Well, and also, I think it's the difference between treating everything as a transaction which and showing up with of like, here's what I need. I don't approach most events like that. I show up as an I'm here to participate and be a part of it, and if there's something I can offer of it, and if there's something I can offer, great. And if there's a need, you know, if it helps me in some way, that's great. But that's really secondary. As another example of that, last year's MJBiz, I was asked to sponsor a women's event and I went back and forth because I just wasn't sure of the ROI and you know, all of these things that we're talking about, does it actually make sense? But I decided to because a friend of mine that I had known for a long time was organizing it. So I'll just shout out to Sarah, sarah Vertosa, sarah Falvo is amazing. So I was like, okay, if it's Sarah's event, it's going to be great, I'm going to do it.

Marianne Cursetjee: 24:26

And at that event is where I met the Lucia who is running our field marketing now in New York. And without those connections and without those introductions, you know, I just showed up. I had no idea. Really, I didn't go in expecting that, but it's been one of these things that totally transformed the way that the brand, the way that we were able to expand, because I had those connections and had that network. So I think that's just the way I approach things is it's not transactional, it's it's really truly genuinely. Can I get to know you and how can we work together?

AnnaRae Grabstein: 24:58

I love that and I am such a big Sarah Falvo fan and she has helped me in all kinds of ways throughout my journey as well. So shout out to her for sure. And I absolutely hear what you're saying. And I think that the difference between focusing on the transaction but just having the transaction is this concept of showing up as authentic humans, letting go of the potential outcome but knowing that we're putting ourselves in situations where we can't even imagine what magic might happen. But by putting ourselves there, we get to open ourselves up to lots of different potential outcomes and when they do happen, that's like where the magic is. And so often I've realized that that's really what it's about is I need to put myself there. I don't know what the outcome might be, but then you end up meeting someone that can change your path, and we can't do that from behind our computers. In the same way, and establishing that level of trust and connection is really challenging remotely, but in person it's like oh, you're a human, I'm a human and we have all these things that we can connect on. It's really powerful stuff.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 26:04

I love that about cannabis and maybe it happens in other spaces, but it's happened to me consistently throughout my cannabis journey. That's beautiful. I love that about cannabis and maybe it happens in other spaces, but it's happened to me consistently throughout my cannabis journey. That's beautiful. I love that. Well, so you know, we've we've been talking about New York and how it happened, and I loved hearing about that connection to Lucia, who also is great and Smoke Show is is an incredible company I love. I love her merch too. Oh my gosh.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 26:24

A hundred percent, I mean it's close, oh, but so it hasn't always worked out. You know, and I think that you've had experiences where partnerships haven't worked out. I have had the same experience. I would say that in my experience working on cannabis deals, the majority of the deals that start off don't close. That's. That's just the truth of the matter. The exploration process leads to something that means that the term sheet does not happen, and that's actually a good thing. In my opinion. That is the whole purpose of diligence, and a deal process is to walk the path with another group and learn about each other enough to figure out if it makes sense to do business together. My understanding is that you have walked away from deals before. New York isn't the first state that you looked at expanding into. I'd love if you could share some of your experiences that you've had before New York, for sure.

Marianne Cursetjee: 27:22

Yeah, happy to. And it's one of these things that the longer I'm in this business and maybe it's part of the cannabis space or maybe it's just being older and having more experience is trying to know when you've got to be stubborn and keep pushing, versus when you pull back and you pivot and each situation. Sometimes you just need to push through and make it happen and other times you need to, like, hold on a second. Is this really the right path? And knowing which is which I think is really critical. So I first started looking at expansion into Massachusetts. I had some connections in Massachusetts and so I spent some time. We had a signed deal with a manufacturer there.

Marianne Cursetjee: 28:07

I spent time going through and trying to build the brand, and what quickly became apparent was that the partner that I had chosen to do the manufacturing and the distribution did not have the capacity or the interest that he said he did. We had a con, you know, in spite of the contract. So this is where I think contracts are, of course, important, but what matters more is what's behind it. Is there actually intent, is there actually capacity, is there actually knowledge? And it took some time for me to figure out that, in fact, this was not going to work. It was not super expensive, we had ordered packaging and you know I'd spent some time building the market but it wasn't a devastating loss. But it was more of a learning experience to learn how I needed to better vet potential partners and do some better due diligence so that we're set up for success. Because you know you make enough of those mistakes and it becomes a problem Making one or two. You can learn from it and make a better choice the next time.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 29:11

Yeah, and I heard you explored Arizona as well.

Marianne Cursetjee: 29:15

Yeah, Arizona was interesting because you know, if you look at it purely from data, you know we're talking about headset or hoodie or any of the data platforms you look at state by state where the data shows there's opportunity.

Marianne Cursetjee: 29:30

I think that's different from where there actually is opportunity, like for a small brand. I think if you're a big brand, an MSO, if you're well-funded, you can create your own space. But for us, we have to be really mindful, and so I spent some time in Arizona, toured a couple of facilities, started down some due diligence, and it became very apparent when we were asking certain questions in due diligence that this partner did not have. They did not have the license they said they had, they did not have the capacity that they said they have. So it was what I was able to take, what I learned from Massachusetts, where I actually did sign a deal, and we took that to Arizona and asked better questions, toured a little bit more, did some more questioning and realized, no, this is not going to work, and so that's that's part of how we just we learned. And then New York happened and here we are, yeah, Arizona's wild.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 30:26

I've I've watched it a lot and participated in different ways, and one of the things about Arizona is that it's just really, really hard to get on shelf into retailers because there is an overproduction in Arizona. There's a lot of vertical operators and so those vertical operators are just doing swap deals with each other to get product on shelf. And then there was a pretty wild accusation and, I think, still a pending lawsuit about basically a conspiracy where some brands were paying buyers off the books to slide their products into the shelf I think it was true leave, because otherwise there was no way that independent brands were going to end up on the shelf. So it turned into this whole conspiracy and I think that you probably dodged a bullet by avoiding that one. So that was some good instincts there.

Marianne Cursetjee: 31:20

Yeah, I think so too. I mean, I'm really glad we're not there now. You know it's attractive, you know if you're just being sucked in by, oh, we can make so much money. But it's more than that. You have to have a good partnership and there has to be a way to be successful, not just about the money.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 31:40

Sure, and although you said that you're 100% focused on New York right now, I know that you also have aspirations beyond just Oregon and New York and that you've been watching the global market. What else are you paying attention to in the ecosystem right now that gives you hope for ongoing growth in the space? Well, there's two things.

Marianne Cursetjee: 32:01

I toured a facility last week when I was in New York for Ravelry. I toured a facility in New Jersey and I think New Jersey is really interesting. I've been watching New Jersey now for a couple years. When I first went out there a year ago, there wasn't hardly any cultivation online, and I think that's still the case. It's been very challenging for operators to get licensed, but that's slowly changing and I think sometime next year there's going to be a lot more capacity.

Marianne Cursetjee: 32:28

I think sometime next year there's going to be a lot more capacity and because New Jersey and New York are really very, you know, they're physically next to each other and I think the markets are very similar, it's a natural expansion of the brand. So New Jersey is definitely on the list and I'm actually really excited about the international side. It's a whole other expansion of the brand that we have to make sure that we don't lose sight of all the stuff we're doing in, you know, in Oregon, new York and maybe New Jersey. But the fact that we have this opportunity to expand into Europe seems really cool to me, and I think that's if there's a few US brands that are working on it. But it's also very challenging. Few US brands that are working on it, but it's also very challenging. But because we have the experience and the ability to react quickly, I think that something in Europe would be fun.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 33:17

Yeah, last week's episode we had on Cameron Clark from Sunderstorm and his brand has been doing a lot of international work and it was a masterclass. I highly recommend that you go check out that episode. He really he inspired both me and Ben afterwards to really start taking the international landscape more seriously. So I think you're onto something there With New Jersey and New York. I'm with you.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 33:43

I think those communities of consumers are one in the same, and so for brands to be in both of those markets just is a no brainer. People live in New Jersey and work in New York and they're buying cannabis in both markets, and to see the same products in both places just makes a ton of sense. And when you're talking about investing in field marketing, it is just as efficient. For someone to be, like in Jersey City, always convinced would be kind of the straw that breaks the camel's back.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 34:31

On interstate commerce and things, because they're just already there will be interstate commerce of things like brand ambassadors. Maybe they won't be traveling with product across state lines, but they will be traveling with message, and I think that those are things ultimately that will help us see policy change too, because it seems so crazy that in order to drive from Manhattan to upstate New York, that the most efficient way is to drive through Pennsylvania, but you can't do it with cannabis and you have to go a less efficient path just to stay inside the state. So I mean, these things are, I think, the inefficiencies that are hopefully going to lead to a more efficient supply chain eventually.

Marianne Cursetjee: 35:16

Yeah, it's interesting talking about. You know, the federal legalization at some point and there's people who are way more educated on this than I am, but I don't think the industry is ready for it yet. I mean, I want, I want descheduling as much as the next person, but simple things like packaging and testing rules. We don't have any agreement state by state what they should be, much less trying to get all 50 states to agree on what that looks like. And so the thing that I learned this last week in New Jersey is that New Jersey's packaging rules are so different from New York.

Marianne Cursetjee: 35:55

So you talked about the value of somebody you know working in Manhattan and living in New Jersey, and they buy a pre-roll in New York and then go to New Jersey and buy the same one at home. Well, our packaging is going to have to look totally different. And so, from a brand perspective, it's the conversation we're having internally now is well, how do we do that in a way that is still authentic and represents the brand and people will recognize it, but yet it's still compliant? And you know, we got to work through that. But it's these little things that I think the industry needs to figure out sooner rather than later, so that we are ready when federal legalization happens.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 36:28

Yeah, and I'm with you that the industry has no idea how challenging it will be, sooner rather than later, so that we are ready when federal legalization happens. Yeah, and I'm with you that the industry has no idea how challenging it will be if legalization happened tomorrow. It would not be easy for anybody, and I think, in concept and construct and in philosophy, we can all want legalization to be the path forward. The reality of how it may or may not work out boots on the ground is like a whole nother deal, and, and even like within the construct of schedule three, which, which seems to be the closest potential step forward. Next, I think that there's going to be a lot of unintended consequences that people don't quite realize, unintended consequences that people don't quite realize, and it will remain to be seen if it moves forward, and I don't think that anybody really knows, except those that know, and it's not me and you. No, definitely not, luckily, I don't know. That's what I will say. I'm happy to not have those inside pieces of knowledge.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 37:28

You know, I do want to, as we're kind of rounding out the hour and the conversation, I want to dive in, though, to some of your experience and lessons learned about operating in a mature market.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 37:40

Yeah, because I think that there are really a lot of lessons to learn and I think I mentioned to you before we went live, when I was walking around Revelry, there was a moment of just feeling like I could see the future a little bit after coming from mature markets and seeing how things changed, you know, from 2019 to 2022 in California and now to where we are in 2025. And you know, in Oregon, it's really considered one of the most competitive cannabis markets in the US. Wholesale flower prices are as low as they've ever been, maybe, and retail prices per gram per gram, I think are the lowest in the entire country. And I just I wonder how, how you look at the future in these markets that you're looking at Like. Do you assume that everything will become Oregon? Do you think that it will stay where it is now or somewhere in the middle? How do you predict the future?

Marianne Cursetjee: 38:42

So I I don't know what the future looks like, but what I know the things that I know that have been pivotal to our success in Oregon are no debt. So I think a lot of people get seduced by all these bells and whistles of whether it's fancy machinery or upgrades or this or that. You know. There's so many things that you could spend your money on that are really cool but don't actually generate enough profit to make it worthwhile. And we try really hard to not be seduced by the cool it's. If we need it, then let's save up for it, if we don't need it, then let's not buy it. And that discipline and that attention to detail has really helped get us through the tough times. Because there have been tough times and I know that there will be more tough times, that's just a given. And when those tough times happen, if you're trying to figure out do I pay payroll or do I make my loan payments, then you're trying to figure out do I pay payroll or do I make my loan payments, then you're put in a bad position. And those are the types of things that people in the more East Coast, newer markets, they don't see that yet and those are the positions we've been in as like, okay, how am I going to pull enough money into this account to make payroll this week? And so making decisions with that in mind mind, so you don't get over your skis and you don't get overextended I think that's the first thing. So, yeah, don't get overextended with debt is huge but also really have operational excellence One of the things.

Marianne Cursetjee: 40:23

Just as an example we always hand trim all of our flour. Most of our flour is top shelf A-bud and we have toyed with the idea of getting a trim machine. It's one of these things that is really expensive but on paper could pay for itself. But we have made the choice to always hand trim. It just produces a much better quality product. But trimming is now probably 20% of our cost of goods and as we're looking at reducing costs, the conversation comes up every six months Do we switch that or not? But you have to have your values in line with where you're spending your money so that you can make that decision easier, because otherwise you'll just go back and forth and not really have a plan. So those are the things that we have experienced in Oregon that I think help translate to other markets.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 41:17

Yeah, I love that the lessons learned really have to do with efficiency and stewarding capital the right way. It's not about how to make the biggest splash in marketing. It's like you look at these operators on the West Coast and mature markets and I think that if we're still there, we are some of the most efficient, cost-conscious entrepreneurs that I have ever met who have really made it through the fire, and I think that these markets have a bad reputation because there has been a tremendous amount of failure and broken hearts and broken dreams, but the operators that are still standing are some of the most incredible that I have known in my career and I see good companies shining through all of it, and I think that what you're saying about not being in debt is huge. This is such great advice to anyone listening.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 42:12

Going slow in order to be able to make good choices and to be able to afford the expansion that you're doing is such an incredible lesson to hear from Marianne. So thank you for bringing that up and this concept about efficiency. It's like this is where we need to go, and I think that when I've seen some of the prices and talked to some of the New York operators about where they are with their margins, with these very high costs that they're getting right now, I realized just how far they have to go, how much learning they have to do in order to get their costs to where they're ultimately going to go. But but hopefully they have time and that the market will will kind of walk with them so that everybody can kind of figure it out in in due course.

Marianne Cursetjee: 42:58

I hope so. I mean it's I, and I hope that people are open-minded enough to ask the questions. I think that's that's really it is. If you, if you come into um, to this business, thinking that you know everything, then that's a very different mindset from hey, I wonder how we can improve, I wonder how we can make this better. I want you know all this curiosity and I, I I try to fill my life with curiosity and improvement and we embed that in our team at the farm. So I just I hope that that that that translates to other, to other businesses also.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 43:29

Yeah, there is an energy in New York about like we don't want to hear it from what you West coasters who think you know everything. Have you encountered that a little bit, absolutely.

Marianne Cursetjee: 43:39

A hundred percent and I'm like fine, you know what, like you have it, you do you. I'm coming at this with hey, what can I learn and how can I be better? And you know it works for me. But that's not to say that's the only way there's. There's multiple ways of doing business.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 43:55

Totally Well. It's been so cool to get to talk about kind of the nuts and bolts of the business. I would be remiss if we didn't dive into leadership a little bit, because it's something both Ben and I are really passionate about. So let's let's kind of end the conversation talking about that. I would love to learn about your leadership philosophy in general. In an industry full of uncertainty, how how do you get up in the morning and stay motivated and stay balanced, or do you?

Marianne Cursetjee: 44:24

stay balanced? Maybe not. You know, work-life balance is a great concept, but when you're running a small business and there's just not, I don't think balance is the right word. I think if you have a passion for it, then there's and there's a reason to show up and you feel excited about what you're doing in the day. That that's all that really matters.

Marianne Cursetjee: 44:55

So, from a leadership perspective, it's challenging because there's a lot of tasks that still are on my plate in spite of, you know, shuffling them off to various teams and various people.

Marianne Cursetjee: 45:00

So it's balancing getting the work done with managing the overall business, and a phrase that somebody told me years ago that has stayed top of mind is that I need to be in a place where I can work on the business, not in the business, and so trying to keep that in mind, with dedicating specific time to really be the thought leader and that's an overused term but really drive strategy and vision for the business, so that all the tasks that happen along the way actually are useful and productive, because we can't afford to waste anybody's time.

Marianne Cursetjee: 45:38

It's challenging because I have my cultivation team at the farm and they're very self-sustaining. My head of cultivation is amazing, but the way that we invest in her is we continue to send her. She wants to go to educational events and learn things and connect with her peers. So we invest with keeping her up to date on the latest cultivation methods and techniques and we invest in the technology at the farm techniques and we invest in the technology at the farm and just really think about how we can drive the brand in other states where we have a different model. So it's a lot of moving parts and a lot of different pieces, but being able to take time separately from all of the daily tasks to just envision what that looks like has been really important.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 46:25

Yeah, and when you talk about creating that mix of working on the business versus in the business, fostering the team, mentoring them, supporting them in their growth, do you have a kind of rhythm of business, like a way that you structure your life to make sure that you are making time for all of these things In a perfect world what happens when things go well.

Marianne Cursetjee: 46:49

I like waking up early and doing my thoughtfulness for the day or for the week separate, before I've got dived into emails or all of the tasks for the day. I got this tablet about a year ago. It's called Remarkable and it's. It doesn't have email, it doesn't have Instagram, it doesn't have any of the social tools, but it really is just for for writing and thoughts and that's been really helpful to even if I can just take 15 minutes to just go go sit and think about what the high level strategy should be and then the execution kind of happens along the way. But I think that's the key is creating time so that the strategy can get what it deserves in terms of time.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 47:34

It sounds like really like settling in with yourself as a part of that process showing up for you in the morning doing that work so that then you can be clear and focused once you're in your day. I love that. I I think that sometimes we think that the work is is in our business, or even business, but it's often actually on ourselves.

Marianne Cursetjee: 47:57

I mean and and so I, I do that. Um, I mean I don't do it as often as like I should. I don't like saying I should, because if I should, that I would, but you know I. But doing that often as well as taking I should. I don't like saying I should, because if I should, then I would, but you know, but doing that often as well as taking care of yourself physically, having a good workout routine, eating well, all of those things that we know about taking care of our bodies are really important, because if our bodies fail, then the business suffers. So staying healthy, whatever that means to you, you know not to be all preachy about what you should be doing in your life, but but find those things that help you feel better and then that makes you a better leader.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 48:36

Yes, amen, amen. Well, marianne, it has been such a joy hearing about your journey and I'm excited to keep following it as you continue on this path, but it's time for our last call, so why don't you give us your final message for our listeners, advice, call to action or a closing thought to leave them with?

Marianne Cursetjee: 48:58

Perfect, thank you, yeah, and it's been great chatting Anna Rae. I really love the conversation. So, last call, check us out. Our website's pretty easy to find alibico. We're on Instagram at alibiny and we look forward to connecting. Feel free to reach out if there's anything we can do. I love mentoring people, I love helping people so and connecting with the New York market, and if you're in New York, go look for an alibi.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 49:25

Awesome. Thank you so much, marianne, and we'll keep checking back in and maybe we'll have you back on in a year or something and learn how it all went. So best of luck to you.

Marianne Cursetjee: 49:36

Thank you so much, you too.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 49:38

Yeah, so that's it, folks. That is the episode. I hope you liked it. I hope you learned something about expanding into a new market. I think Marianne shared a lot of great stuff with us today. Thank you to Vertosa and Wolfmeyer for sponsoring this show and to our producer, eric Rossetti. If you enjoyed the episode, please drop us a review on Apple Podcasts, spotify, youtube or wherever you listen to podcasts. It really helps listeners like you find our content, subscribe, share high spirits with colleagues, friends, family and, as always, folks, stay curious, stay informed and, most importantly, keep your spirits high. That's the show.