Cameron Clarke: 0:05

Hey everyone, this is our 10 year anniversary. We're super excited about celebrating 10 years of Kanha, and so for that, we actually have a sweepstakes where you can win a free trip to Thailand and stay at the Beach Samui Resort, where you can consume cannabis and have a great time. So I encourage you all to sign up for our sweepstakes and see if you can win. We're going to be drawing, I think, early in January of 2026. If you go to our website, kahnablisscom, you will find the sweepstakes and you'll be able to enter, and so I encourage you to do it, because it's going to be an amazing trip and for anyone just listening, it is K-A-N-H-A.

Ben Larson: 0:48

Welcome to episode 104 of High Spirits. I'm Ben Larson and with me, as always, is Anna Rae Gradstein, recording Tuesday, september 9th 2025. We've got an incredible conversation for you today. We're bringing on Cameron Clark, the CEO of Kanha Thunderstorm, however you know it, a worldwide brand. We're going to dive into all the things international in this brand, but before we get there, anna right, it's good to see you. I missed you last week.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 1:27

Get there, anna Rae, it's good to see you. I missed you last week. Oh, you too. We took a day off for Labor Day, so sorry to everyone that missed us. It felt really good to just have a quiet Monday. And yeah, you know, laboring, we all labor a lot and we need a break, so I felt good about it. Did you have a nice holiday?

Ben Larson: 1:46

I think so. I think so. It was quickly erased because I was on an early morning flight to DC afterwards and that sucked all the rest out of me, but it was a good trip. We were there with the Coalition for Dope, average Alternatives and in partnership with the US and Brown table, which doesn't often happen. But we'll say that we're fighting from the same side of the table right now and our newfound friends, the Wine and Spirits Wholesalers of America.

Ben Larson: 2:13

So the beautiful thing about this is that when we held events we held panels and roundtable discussions it was literally standing room only, and I must say I've been doing this for a number of years and doing a lot of cannabis and hemp lobbying and we've never had this situation where there was so much interest literally people standing in the halls of Congress holding their ears up to the door, trying to hear what was going on, and so I just love the fact whether you're a hemp or cannabis or both operator, those minds and when you look at progress, it doesn't always come in the form of huge wins. You know we're still waiting for rescheduling on the cannabis side, but to see the level of interest and the level of engagement and conversation tells us that we're getting closer and closer to that elusive tipping point.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 3:07

Well, so, when you're talking with elected officials and their staffs in DC, there was a time when it really felt like those were the first conversations that those people were having about cannabis or cannabinoids, and I'm curious of what it's like now. Are people tired of hearing about it? Does it feel like they still need the level of education that they used to? What are you encountering?

Ben Larson: 3:31

Well, look, I mean, you remember the days of giant inflatable joints being carried across Capitol Mall, right Like those days aren't that long ago, and what that image evokes is probably, you know, a bunch of hippies trying to prove their relevance, and that still has its place.

Ben Larson: 3:52

But where we are now, and where a lot of these conversations are hedging, is we have retailers talking about how this is saving their business and saving their employees, and we have growers talking about how there's actually a place for their cannabinoids and their plants to go to and that they're self-drew.

Ben Larson: 4:12

And we have consumers. We have consumers in states that haven't had access to cannabis and all of a sudden, they have access to an alternative, and so we have just a lot more stakeholders involved in the conversation, and, at the end of the day, whether you believe they're doing a good job of this or not, the legislators must represent their constituents at a certain point, and so the voices are getting louder, they're getting more diverse, and I think that's what's been the amazing thing about this partnership with the alcohol industry and I know there's a lot of different opinions on this, but when it comes to lobbying, it puts a lot more voices in the room and creates a lot more relationships and conversations. So I think, all in all, you know, things are progressing quickly and while there's a valid argument of, like you know, beverage versus the rest of the hemp and cannabis world, it truly is just a stepping stone to really blowing up this conversation.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 5:11

Yeah, it's interesting to see who the allies are at the table as things continue to progress, for sure. Well, I think the United States of hemp is still a story to be written.

Ben Larson: 5:21

here is still a story to be written here and we'll see what happens. It's fraught with turmoil. I mean, if anyone's tracking what's happening in Texas. The special sessions have subsided and hemp remains in a deadlock of status quo. So the governor and the lieutenant governor couldn't find a happy middle which allows the industry, for better or for worse, to proliferate for however long they decide to do something.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 5:51

On that. Let's talk about that for just one second. I think that while there's a lot of the hemp industry that is very excited about what's happening in Texas, my worry and I think that the real losers here are the new operators that are hoping to come into the medical program in Texas. And you know what they did pass in the legislative session was an expansion of the medical program and they're going to be licensing up to 15 companies in the state to be operating and with no new regulations for the hemp products in the market, I think that those companies that were thinking about participating in the medical side of the industry are going to have a lot of challenge, kind of justifying the risk of investing in that market, and I mean it's to be seen what happens there, it's true.

Ben Larson: 6:45

But had they gone further with the cannabis regulations and created more access, maybe the lieutenant governor and the governor would have had a chance to come a little bit closer on their decision making. But it wouldn't. It would have been a bet From my perspective, hemp or not. It would have been a bad bet still, because that that industry, the state, the state is just too big and the way that they were expanding it was just not far enough, and I think everyone would generally agree with that statement.

Ben Larson: 7:13

But here's my fear is that without regulations, you then get volatility like what we're experiencing in Florida, where new rules are just being made up, seemingly overnight, that really impact businesses that are selling into the state. So labeling rules that suddenly cause an entire stickering job to be done by everyone selling in the state. And we're experiencing similar things in Minnesota right now, even more extreme. Minnesota hailed as the nexus of all of this being created all of a sudden, implementing near cannabis restrictive regulations overnight in rulemaking. So there was no legislative process and everyone's be like what do we do with this? It's now in statute. So, yeah, a lot going on, as always, but that is the hemp and cannabis world that we live in.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 8:04

Well, so let's move to some international stories, because we don't often cover the international market and in this episode we're really excited to have an expert in it, and so it had us looking, too, to the international news a little bit more, and I saw an article from the Economic Times that was really interesting, reporting on India's booming cannabis wellness market. And just to remind everyone, india is now the world's most populous nation and cannabis is both culturally rooted in India and increasingly a part of the modern wellness trends that are happening there, specifically in the non-intoxicating side primarily, and it is reported that the market last year was a $1.3 billion market in India, with mostly CBD oils, recovery gels, gummies, things like that, and there is a worry from a lot of folks in the medical space and in the government that commercialization is outpacing regulation. So it's interesting to see this country that I haven't been following as it really pertains to cannabis coming out and being a little worried about the pace of consumer excitement compared to the pace of regulation.

Ben Larson: 9:18

Super exciting because we get so sucked into the US business and we talk about unlocking California. 30, 40 million people, et cetera, et cetera. India's what like 1.4 billion people and like a 3000 year history of cannabis consumption. That's a massive opportunity, one that I can't even fathom and didn't even know that there was that much going on. So maybe our guest today will have some insights there, hopefully, Virtosa.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 9:51

India. Here we come, there you go, and yeah, and then the last story that we'll cover before we bring on Cameron, which will really relate to some of the things we're talking about, is that the Thai parliament has elected a new prime minister, and and I'm going to not say his name correctly, but I'll try Anutan Charanvarakul.

Ben Larson: 10:09

Oh, I thought his name was Cannabis King.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 10:12

Cannabis King he's often been called. In 2022, he was the health minister and he was the first one to announce the country's narcotics agency had approved the descheduling of cannabis from the ministry's list of controlled drugs, making Thailand the first Asian country to do so. Decriminalization has been a source of controversy in Thailand and we'll talk about that more, but it is an interesting political moment to now have this cannabis advocate in the top leadership seat in the country and there has been a really huge, widespread proliferation of cannabis seat in the country and there has been a really huge widespread proliferation of cannabis all over the country. I think that we'll be learning more about that today, but but excited to be seeing Thailand top of the headlines in cannabis.

Ben Larson: 10:55

I have so many questions because I know it was building and there was legalization and then there's a retracting of that.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 11:03

Let's bring on Cameron then. Cameron Clark is the co-founder and CEO of Sunderstorm, a manufacturer behind the award-winning cannabis brand Kanha. He's a serial entrepreneur with a really interesting background. He launched one of the first electronic courtrooms in the 90s. He built a video streaming company back in the early days of the internet. He's innovated in augmented reality and even imported acai before it was trendy. Beyond business, cameron has founded nonprofits and biohacker spaces and has explored everything from algae research to synthetic biology.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 11:40

And, of course, he's also a Stanford grad who now spends his energy taking cannabis global, so really excited to bring on Cameron. Welcome to the show today, cameron.

Cameron Clarke: 11:51

Thank you very much, anna Rae. Happy to be here. Been good to see you, you too, man.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 11:55

Well, so you've been a builder in multiple industries. What made cannabis the next frontier for you?

Cameron Clarke: 12:02

You know it's really interesting. That's a long story and I won't give you the entire story, but basically it's been a life's journey. I know I took a hard right-hand turn in my mid-40s and traveled around the world, did a lot more plant medicines than I'd done before and, you know, the universe basically just delivered me to cannabis when it was going legal and it's. You know, plant medicines are one of my big passions and this has been super exciting. For us to be one of the drivers in this industry through legalization and to see it go global is super exciting because I believe that everybody almost everyone, can use these plant medicines in a beneficial way. So, connor, we see ourselves as a wellness brand and we are thrilled to be driving wellness into people's lives, particularly in this very chaotic world we live in today.

Ben Larson: 12:55

Chaotic is definitely the word, as our intro highlighted, but you've been living the chaos since 2015, which is exactly when I entered the space as well. So, like a year before we legalized in California your California based company, can you talk about that journey for you, as far as going from those early days in the California market, which we always anointed as the largest contiguous cannabis market, et cetera, et cetera to now being, you know, a global leader in building a cannabis brand? Like? What were the major jumps for you from going to addressing the California opportunity to becoming a global wellness brand.

Cameron Clarke: 13:34

Yeah, I think that's really a great question and I and I and I love that question because I got to tell you when I, you know, if you told me five years, or let's call it six or seven years ago that we were going to be a global brand, I probably would have scoffed at that. And so, you know, this journey has been really incredible. It's not that I didn't want to be, it's just that, you know, I thought that it was probably out of our reach. And it just goes to show you that, you know, if you drive hard and just pursue your passions, you know, all kinds of great things can happen and you can make great progress.

Cameron Clarke: 14:04

So for us, my partner and I, keith, went to Stanford together back in the day. We've known each other for many, many years and we looked at each other. You know, when it was heading towards, when Colorado went legal, and we said, you know, we got to get in this industry we're very passionate about plant medicines and we looked around you know the entire country and we said, where should we go? Right, because I was willing to move anywhere to start the business. And we knew that Colorado was booming. And you know, we looked at. You know, canada was at that point, was lining up and was very close to going legal, and we basically just said look, you know what, if California is going to be the biggest market, if we can win here, we can win anywhere. It's kind of like New York right, you can succeed in New York, you can succeed anywhere. So we started in California. We learned a lot from California and I think that's one of the reasons why we've been successful is that it's been a great proving ground for us. It's been super challenging, as everybody on this podcast knows and you know round. For us it's been super challenging, as everybody on this podcast knows, but it's been incredibly valuable and we've been able to learn a lot.

Cameron Clarke: 15:09

So back in 2019, 2020, we did our national expansion. We launched into three new states and that was an exciting moment after we had felt like we had become a dominant brand in California, we had become a top 10 brand, so we decided to expand nationally. Other brands had expanded earlier with licensing deals, but we wanted to make sure that we had a very stable base before we conducted our expansion. And then, in 2022, I had the opportunity, through one of our partners, to get an introduction into Thailand, right after Thailand had been descheduled by a Newton, and so I have a personal background in international trade, which I did for many years, so I understand international business.

Cameron Clarke: 15:50

I've spent a lot of time in Thailand, done a lot of business in Thailand over the years, and so for me to go find this opportunity in Thailand, which is the first Asian country to allow cannabis, was a very exciting opportunity. And so, you know, in two weeks I cut a deal, signed the MOU and we were off and running. And one of the personal experiences that I really appreciate was we had a booth at the first Hemp Asia show, which is where a Newton, right after he had descheduled it, actually gave the opening talk. And right after he gave the opening talk he gave a little press conference for five minutes afterwards and then he walked up the aisle, came into our booth and took a picture with me and my new partners. So that's when I realized that my partners were very well connected.

Ben Larson: 16:38

That's so cool.

Cameron Clarke: 16:39

He walked off and he was gone, so I realized that we were well connected and that's very important in a lot of these countries around the world.

Ben Larson: 16:49

I hear that is the hallmark of doing business in Southeast Asia. I'm going to jump in really quick just for a quick request for some advice, because I was listening to your interview with our friends over at the Dime, I pulled this quote. It says when you do good work, opportunities come to your doorstep, and that is something we're experiencing right now. How do you weigh, as an entrepreneur with an exciting business jumping at opportunities and quickly spinning something up in Thailand, against avoiding kind of like the shiny object syndrome? You guys are doing a lot and we'll get into all the things you're doing in just a bit, but like just that decision matrix, because everything seems exciting, it does.

Cameron Clarke: 17:32

And I will tell you that for us, if you ask my team if we're doing too much, they're going to say yes. So I'm one of those people that I don't know if I necessarily like the shiny objects. I like interesting opportunities that I feel confident that we can take advantage of and leverage. So I call them pinholes of opportunity. So in my younger years I moved so fast and drove so hard and felt like I could accomplish anything that I wasn't paying attention to what was going on around me and so I bypassed, I think, a lot of opportunities that I should have paid more attention to.

Cameron Clarke: 18:12

And now, as I get older, a little more mature, a little more experienced and have a bunch of failures under my belt as well as some successes, I've realized that slowing down is better. And looking for these opportunities around that they're not necessarily bright, shiny, know slowing down is better. And looking for these opportunities around that they're not necessarily bright, shiny objects, but they're dim, shiny objects and I call them pinholes of opportunity. And if you go, look through that pinhole and you and you and you take a look at it, if you climb through it, you will find a whole new world of really interesting and great stuff and I think that's how I live my life these days is not necessarily looking for the shiniest thing, but paying attention to all the little opportunities that are around that could grow into something much more important, and so for me personally, I think that's really been a massive philosophical change in my life that's gone on in the last 15 years.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 19:04

I love what you're saying because I often think of cannabis entrepreneurs as market makers, people that are really creating spaces where there hasn't been one before, and this pinhole of opportunity idea really feels like it hones in on that concept.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 19:19

And I want to dive into what you're seeing around the world. We've touched on that. You did this deal in Thailand but I know that you are watching for pinholes of opportunity around the entire globe and I'd love it if you could give us your broad perspective on both kind of like the big macro perspective of like what's happening on all the different continents, but even where there is a pinhole, that you see one opening it up and going a little bit more macro perspective of like what's happening on all the different continents, but even where, where there is a pinhole, that you see one opening it up and going a little bit more deep for us, yeah, I think the global markets are super interesting and I'm really glad you guys talked about it at the beginning of the podcast, because that's really, to be honest, the most exciting thing for me.

Cameron Clarke: 20:02

So for me, you know, for us we have very large, very challenging competitors in the edible space nationwide. Some of them have, you know, a much longer time, for a longer timeframe, even though we've been at this for 10 years. They've been at it for longer and so they've been able to make a little bit more hay in the US. So when I saw the global opportunity kind of started to come to fruition, I decided to change our game a little bit. Right, we're still driving hard in the US market, but we really wanted to become a global brand. So in 2022, I started canvassing the global market, really paying attention to what was going on in the global market. So what I saw was a lot of talk about how slow things were going. But when I went and visited these markets and I looked at actually what's happening, it felt a lot like what I had seen in the US right in our transition in some of these markets. You know, even though it's very medical right and the US is truly, really recreational. Those markets were still evolving in a way that looked similar to what my experience had been. So as I paid attention to it, I realized that the little, small signs are starting to occur where these markets are developing. But ultimately, what's going to drive these markets is a consumer base that is very passionate about the plant and that exists all over the globe, and I think that is what's really the most important thing for people to understand is whether it's recreational or medical, or focus on wellness, as we do, or whatever you're doing, cannabis is a plant that has a massive consumer base and has for millennia right, and so we're just creating structure around the globe for access to this plant, and that's one of the most beautiful things about it.

Cameron Clarke: 21:50

As I started to pay attention and more recently, what I've realized is that, as germany you know, it started to get exciting. You see, you've seen kind of you're seeing kind of a shift in how the global markets are operating. So south africa, for example, has been a big supplier of cannabis flour for a while and that's been driving a lot into Europe. But then, you know, colombia has taken forever to kind of get their act together and kind of step into the market, but that's actually now starting to stabilize. They're moving very small quantities, but their market is slowly evolving. But, in general, what we see is Australia is a country that is, it's basically a rec market masquerading as a medical market.

Cameron Clarke: 22:33

California 2015. Exactly right. So, because the consumers there are very passionate about the plant, and then you see a very strong market starting to develop in Europe and the UK. So that's exciting, and things are starting to catch wind. In the UK, for example, you only have 50,000 or 60,000 patients today, but they believe that it could be 100,000 patients by the end of the year, and so these markets will evolve quickly, and so don't scoff at the fact there's only 50,000 patients in the UK.

Cameron Clarke: 23:05

If you look at the black market in the UK, it's massive. If you look at the black market in Europe, it's massive, and so what we need to do is the same thing that we've been trying to do in the States is basically evolve that black market and bring them into the licensed or recreational market or, as we have here, the hemp market, which is a totally different discussion. But ultimately, what we need to do is create safe, stable, consistent products that consumers can get access to, and so that's what we're all doing in this licensed market and it's super important. And I will actually say one thing is there's a lot of complaints about California, about how we screwed up the recreational market by creating legalization. I will say that it took me a year and a half to find truly clean, pesticide-free cannabis. Everybody was saying, oh, I've got clean weed, oh, I've got pesticide-free. We tested everything from the beginning. It was flooded with pesticides and I was thrilled when we finally got to the recreational market and we could really truly access a consistent supply of safe, pesticide-free cannabis oil to put into our products Back to the global markets.

Cameron Clarke: 24:17

So they've started to evolve and you see that South Africa is still one of the important suppliers, but you've got Thailand and Canada now over the last couple of years that have really started to evolve in driving a lot of the cannabis flower sales globally. Thailand's still getting on its feet in terms of stable product, the test right and all that. Canada has been shipping to Europe for quite some time. So that's good. So we're seeing these global markets and international trade really starting to develop and I think that's very exciting news for everyone. So that trust is starting to occur in the line that the channels of trade are evolving.

Cameron Clarke: 24:58

So for us as a cannabis brand, that's fantastic, because now I can manufacture or cultivate in one or two countries and then I can access the globe. So it's really about now. It's about finding where are the right places to set up our cultivation and manufacturing and how do we address the regulatory frameworks so that we can actually provide products that are compliant with the destination markets. So destinations Europe and Australia really are the big ones. As we see it today we are entering in Japan with CBD and CBG CBM products. So that's interesting. Thailand has been a pretty strong market for a while. It's evolving right now, but there's a lot happening and I think that's the exciting thing.

Ben Larson: 25:44

I'm going to have to go rewrite my operating plan for next year.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 25:48

Well, you, you brought up this, this whole idea about this, on this existing consumer base all over the world and, and I think we know that people have been consuming cannabis forever. What I, what I don't have a good grasp on is what a transition from a largely illicit market will be in some of these countries to a more regulated market, and it's been really painful. In the US. We've seen most of the market remain in the unregulated channels and it's this constant push and pull and enforcement. There's varied opinions about the best way to do that and what criminalization is appropriate or not appropriate. When you legalize a plant, even though people are doing outside of the legal framework, how do you see that unfolding in the countries that you think are going to be the biggest consumer opportunities? You mentioned Australia and Germany. How do you see that playing out?

Cameron Clarke: 26:48

Yeah, I think that's a really super important question and I see it as chaos, because that's what we've kind of endured in the US's. Really it's challenging, right, because if you just completely de-schedule this plant and allowed full access across the board with with very minimal regulation, what we would find is a massive market. We would find a growing market. We would find a lot of happy consumers. You would find, you know, pricing probably moderate pricing stability but I think you would also find a lot of product that's unsafe. And if you look at the hemp market in the US, this is kind of, you know, it's a litmus test. We can see what that looks like.

Cameron Clarke: 27:38

The hemp market has been pretty much unregulated for two or three years now and you see a lot of products that consumers should not be consuming, and so we need to have a certain amount of regulation so that we can have safe, consistent products that are medicine for millions of people. The amount of regulation is basically a governor on the adoption and the let's just call it the adoption cycle of this amazing plant, and I think no one has figured out the right recipe. It's super complicated. I mean, if you look in Germany, where they're filling vapes one at a time at the pharmacy, which is what they've been doing. It's kind of silly. Then you look at Thailand, where they just blew the doors wide open and most of the products in the market were untested, although our products. There we made sure that everything was tested and that's what we touted from the very beginning. It's pretty chaotic. You know, none of us were around when alcohol was legalized again in the 30s and so we don't really know whether it took 10 or 20 years for it to really be. You know, shift away from these backwoods distilleries to, you know, to a fully regulated, safe market.

Cameron Clarke: 29:02

But I think for us, I think we just have to realize that it's going to be a bit chaotic and we just have to do the best we can. And for anybody that's actually in the industry and operating in the industry, it's a bucking bronco. You just got to hang on for dear life and you got to make sure that you don't make bad decisions and that you navigate through it very carefully. We do it at Sundarström in a way where we just we take as much information and data as we can possibly absorb and we throw it against the wall and then we argue for hours. So you know, it gets a little intense at times, but I'm a leader that basically values my opinions, the opinions of my team and my colleagues, and we debate things endlessly, and I think that's one of the reasons that we've avoided some of the pitfalls that other companies have not avoided. We certainly have made mistakes. I wish I hadn't made those mistakes, but this industry is really difficult and to be able to navigate through this is incredibly challenging. I just don't see. I don't see that it's going to be any different, and I'll tell you a funny story.

Cameron Clarke: 30:11

When we entered Thailand back in 2022, you know, we, we, we. We got up and running, we were selling products, and every time I talked to someone about Thailand, I said, oh my God, but I keep hearing it's going to be rescheduled. It's very chaotic. Man, how do you deal with that? I said, well, I started in California. I mean, california was incredibly chaotic back in the day and I was running from the cops every day, so hiding our facility back in 2015.

Cameron Clarke: 30:43

So it's just the nature of this industry and one of the things that those of us in the industry have to do is we have to work better together to drive it in a direction that makes sense, and I think there's a lot of room for improvement there. And how do you do that on a global basis when the European markets want to be highly regulated, and Australia as well? It's challenging, but I think we just need to keep destigmatizing the plant and letting people recognize that there are different value propositions and uses of this plant, and there are some very highly medical uses and there are some recreational uses, and then there's kind of a blend in the middle and that's what makes this plant so complex. So I don't know, that's not really a good answer to your question, but I think it's just something that we need to drive forward and, as companies and CEOs, just have to do the best you can to make good decisions.

Ben Larson: 31:44

I love how you highlight the importance of optionality and creating these different levers so that you can weather the volatility, and so it's like it's almost counterintuitive, but I understand from running our business. It's like the more exposure you have, the more exposed you are to volatility, but it gives you at least different accelerator pedals to push on to at least maintain the financials of the company. You do have a significant part of your company that is built around nanotech and nanodelivery, but it's a highly diversified portfolio, everywhere from vapes to normal gummies to ones infused with nanotech. And I'm curious what is the data telling you about different markets, legacy markets like California, new markets? I don't know if you call Thailand a new market because it's been there for a while, but how do these different product offerings show up for you as a company in the various markets that you're serving around around the world or around the U S?

Cameron Clarke: 32:48

Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, this year is our 10 year anniversary, so I'm thrilled to be celebrating our 10 year anniversary. It's huge, amazing to get to 10 years, so that's great. But in fact, 10 years ago, we were the first company in the industry to launch a nanotechnology, which was a liposomal technology in our tinctures. And so, because I have a science background, I immediately understood the value proposition of nanotechnology and fast acting. And I know that with plant medicines a lot of people over consume or overdose because they don't feel the effect right away, and so I wanted to compress that timeframe at which people could actually feel the effect, and so that's been a big driver for us over the years.

Cameron Clarke: 33:31

While we started with the nanotechnology and the tinctures, we then followed that with the gummies later, and you know it's interesting, in most markets the nano gummies are the most popular in. In most markets, the nano, the nano, um gummies are the most popular, and but in some markets, you know, our classic gummies are the are the most popular. So it's really interesting to see that there is some variability in the markets. I think part of it has to do with, you know, legacy consumers versus new consumers Um, new consumers, I think are you know? When we look at the data, um, uh, we find that new consumers, new consumers, I think. When we look at the data, we find that new consumers seem to feel more comfortable with nanotechnology because they feel the effect faster.

Ben Larson: 34:09

Is there a price differential between the two products?

AnnaRae Grabstein: 34:12

There is there is there, is I'm wondering why anybody would not choose a nanotechnology. You know, I'll tell you why.

Cameron Clarke: 34:21

Because the nanotechnology is, know, I'll tell you why. Because because, um, uh, for the nanotechnology tends to is more bioavailable, but it gets in and gets out of the system faster. So, you know, for a lot of people they can just consume, you know, another, another gummy or whatever. But I think that you know, when you look at a sleep product, for example, you want to stay asleep and so we have formulated so. Originally, our Tranquility product did not have the nanotechnology in it because we wanted to stay in the bodies of consumers throughout the night. However, our new sleep formula that we've created, we've modified that a bit so that we've used the nanotechnology on certain cannabinoids and not others to basically create an effect that's both fast acting and longer lasting throughout the night.

Cameron Clarke: 35:05

So that took a couple years for us to develop and I know, for example, ben, with Vertosa, it's a great job that you've done there with getting that into all these beverages. I think it's beverages the closer that we can get on the beverage effect to be more like alcohol, so you feel it quickly, it's a much better experience for the consumers and I think that's what we really. That's one of the things that's really driven this beverage market is that consumers. With these nanotechnologies and fast-acting technologies, they've been able to actually feel the effect. So I think this technology is super important yeah absolutely.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 35:43

I wonder how you think about other form factors and and what you've learned from nanotechnology in terms of where the market might be going and innovation. I know you're in vape and vape is like one of those self titrating like you feel it right away Is. Is there innovation coming in that form factor or in others that is similar? Is something going to be as disruptive as nanotech has been to gummies and to other edibles?

Cameron Clarke: 36:11

I don't necessarily think so, but it's possible. I will tell you that the dosing mechanisms on vapes is starting to be really important for the medical markets. For example, in Europe there is a movement towards being able to prepackage product and instead of having the pharmacy fill it. So that's actually finally starting to happen, and a lot of that has to do with the ability to dose a certain quantity in the vape products. But that's not new technology, right? That's been in California here. It's been in the US for what? Eight years or something at least that I know of. So I think Dosis was the first one that came out with that. So it's a good question.

Cameron Clarke: 36:54

I think in California, for example, if you look at the history of products, you had hundreds of different types of cannabis products seven or eight years ago. You know you had it in potato chips and you had it in all kinds of. You know you had it in hot sauces and all kinds of stuff. You don't see so much. You don't see much of that today.

Cameron Clarke: 37:13

Consumers have really voted with their pocketbooks on what form factors they really like. I do think there are other form factors that consumers will begin to adopt a little bit outside, but in terms of these cool new technologies. I think it's really related to the cannabinoids themselves and the terpenes and how we blend all these products together with, by the way, other coactive ingredients that create a specific effect. So the one thing that really I think we're all driving towards, or a lot of us are driving towards, is functionality in these products. What is the purpose? Why am I taking cannabis today? Am I taking it to relax? Am I taking it for pain? Am I taking it for sleep, anxiety? What have you? So I think that's where we're, that's where we're really driving to towards in terms of innovation ben, he's speaking your language oh, I know, I'm loving it.

Ben Larson: 38:08

I'm loving it. Before you talked about that, I was going to say the the main place we can innovate uh, which I now agree with you, but beyond that was actually less on the delivery mechanism and more on access, and that's what we're experiencing right now in the US is innovative access to the plant and how that's creating huge consumer base. And, cameron, I know you've been working in the tourism or the hospitality channels and I would love to just hear what excites you about this, like kind of how you're thinking about it as far as kind of growing the opportunity for not only Kanha but the plant in general.

Cameron Clarke: 38:50

Yeah, I think this is a really, really important question. So, because we believe that Kanha is a wellness brand and we're doing this because we believe wholeheartedly in the wellness value proposition of the plant, which is kind of a blend of recreational and medical and kind of envelops all types of consumers we do believe that access is crucially important. And so, as the world gets more chaotic and post-COVID it's been quite chaotic and I don't see it getting any less chaotic, to be honest, with politics and all the stress that we have in our lives what I'm seeing out in the general population is that people are much, much more interested every single day with, you know, finding vacations and places to go where they can relax and they can de-stress and they can, they can, you know, pull off the layers of of of complexity that exists in all of our lives, and so these wellness resorts and wellness retreats are booming, and so what we've been trying to push towards is try to find, you know, resorts where we can, you know, places to go where people can actually consume cannabis in a in a safe way, maybe for the first time, maybe not, but they're. But they, they, they can, they can feel safe, they can be relaxed and they can. They can learn how to to dose it properly for whatever the whatever the reason is that they want they want to consume it.

Cameron Clarke: 40:16

And so a year ago we came across a hotel called the Beach Samui, which is in Thailand, and so we developed a partnership with them because they had the concept from the very beginning that they wanted to create a wellness resort that was really plant medicine based, that had just completely descheduled the plant and didn't have all these rigorous regulations around it. The beach sommelier was able to create an environment with a dispensary right inside the lobby of the hotel. We could put our you know, for adults who wanted to consume it for sleep, we could put our sleep gummies on the bedside right next to where they're to take before they go to bed. You can sit in a bathtub, out on the balcony looking over the beautiful Thailand ocean, and smoke a joint and chill out. If you want, you can get a massage and eat a gummy before you have your massage. So they really try to integrate cannabis wellness into the day-to-day experience of their visitors at the resort, and I think that's been a beautiful thing.

Cameron Clarke: 41:28

I believe that these kinds of resorts are going to be more and more popular as we go through time, and this is what consumers are seeking, and I think it's not just cannabis.

Cameron Clarke: 41:43

You're going to see clinical environments in these resorts where they have full access to doctors for both cannabis as well as, potentially, psilocybin and other psychedelic treatments.

Cameron Clarke: 41:56

I mean, people want to get healed right, they want to feel better, they want to de-stress from all the anxiety in their lives, and these resorts are a great place to be able to offer this, as long as they do it in a wellness way, in a safe way, which means that for some of the stuff, they'll need access to doctors, and so we actually, through my partnership with our JV partner in they have created a clinic in Thailand with doctors on staff that can do remote consultations, because my partners were one of the first five medical license holders in 2018 in Thailand. So having these doctors on staff and being able to consult with the resort or other resorts is really a great thing, and I think that blend is very important, and we're going to see more and more of that around the world as the regulations begin to relax a little bit, as the stigma goes away, so I think all of us in the industry should be driving towards this, because it really helps the consumers gain access and also gain comfort with this amazing plan.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 43:09

I'm so here for this, and we've been talking about having a high spirits retreat for a long time. Maybe we need to take our destination to Thailand.

Cameron Clarke: 43:18

Do it at the Beach Tamui Hotel, for sure. Our ambitions just got much higher.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 43:23

Oh my gosh sounds great. And tourism it really has been an economic driver as states around the US have turned on. When Colorado was an early entrant into the adult use market, colorado really raised their hand and talked about how Las Vegas has been seeing like a decrease in tourism overall and the cannabis industry there has talked about how that has affected their business significantly. So I think that it's a double edged sword. Is that when we build around tourism, it also can really hurt when the tourism shifts. But I'm so excited for it. I am all about the wellness retreat space myself. I am the consumer for that, so I can't wait to get to more confidently consume cannabis when I travel, for sure.

Cameron Clarke: 44:26

I will tell you something, and there's a lot of people that will debate me on this, but I've been spending a lot of time in Thailand the last three years and there are a lot of tourists flooding to Thailand to go consume cannabis, perhaps for the first time or perhaps just because they're big cannabis consumers and they can't get access to it at home. And one of the things that I saw that really blew my mind is countries. You know a lot of Islamic countries, for example, you know, coming to Thailand to go smoke, go smoke cannabis because they don't drink, and people from all over the world, all walks of life, just coming there. And there's no doubt in my mind that that cannabis in Thailand has helped the tourism industry and I think it has to be controlled to some extent. Right, you can't have it everywhere, right, for the consumers that don't want to smell the smell or whatever, but provide access where you can.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 45:21

Yeah, and I think not just for people trying it for the first time. But as cannabis becomes more normal around the world, people start using cannabis regularly in their lives and they don't want to go on vacation in places where, all of a sudden, they're going to accidentally be a criminal because they had a vape in their bag and that's a really scary thing. Nobody wants that.

Cameron Clarke: 45:46

And, interestingly enough, I didn't mention earlier but there are two recreational trials going on in Europe right now. One is in Switzerland and the other one is in the Netherlands, and they're super interesting. We know that we can for years been able to buy cannabis in the Netherlands, but now they've actually created this more formal structure for a recreational test. What's interesting about the difference in those two markets and they're likely to be the first two truly recreational markets in Europe Switzerland has limited access by saying only a very small number of patients can get access to this recreational test and it's supposed to go on for a few years but will likely probably grow recreational sooner.

Cameron Clarke: 46:29

The Netherlands is limited not by the number of patients but by the number of dispensaries, so I think it's 90, 98, 95, I don't know something like that where they're running this recreational test. But they have an unlimited number of consumers that they can actually serve, which means that people can actually fly to the Netherlands, as they could in the past, but now truly, you know, in a very open way and consume cannabis, buy cannabis and consume cannabis. So so the tourism industry we will see, I believe, will continue to grow in the Netherlands because of this really full access to the plant. So this is going to get driven globally. Cannabis tourism is going to be a big deal.

Ben Larson: 47:16

It's amazing I'm just reflecting on the brand For anyone that's not watching the video over Cameron's shoulder is this beautiful mandala with like a tiger on it. I know that's largely been your branding since you've started, but now you're leading the charge in Southeast Asia. What a beautiful alignment of brand and market. Was this foreseen or was this? How did you think about building the kind of brand? What made you go with this? And I'll just acknowledge that, as an Asian person, I don't see a lot of Asian branding in the space, so I've always appreciated that about the brand.

Cameron Clarke: 47:53

Great. Thank you so much. You know, when we created the brand, both Keith and I have traveled the world extensively. We're both very, very passionate travelers of Asia and really love Asian culture in so many ways. I will include Indian culture in there as well. I've spent a lot of time traveling India and you know ashrams and studying over there.

Cameron Clarke: 48:23

So we, you know, we wanted to create a brand that people could trust, and, and so for us we had to, you know, shift away from, you know, a lot of the black and green and a lot of the darkness that was around the plant because it was still, you know, not not fully legal in the us, at least in california. When we started, we really appreciated, you know, some of the asian philosophies. So Kanha is actually an Indian word in some dialects for food, but it's also a different name for Krishna, and Krishna is the God of wisdom, compassion and love. So it's really why I wanted to get into this industry. Right, it was to be able to provide people a way to live better lives, and that's really what we do here every single day.

Cameron Clarke: 49:09

So the tiger is a symbol of strength and the tiger actually there's a kind of tiger preserve in India.

Cameron Clarke: 49:15

So it was a perfect. It was a perfect blend of of a symbol that really meant something to us, because we knew we had to be strong to drive, you know, to endure all the challenges in this industry, and to be strong to give people a reason to actually follow the plant and and get access to it. So, so, when I had the opportunity to open up a talent, it was a natural and they loved our they, they, they loved our logo, they loved our tiger. We couldn't, you know, people were fighting over the t-shirts in our, in our trade show booths, which was exciting. So it's really come full circle in a big way, as, as Ben, I think you alluded to, and it's exciting for us because we really do believe in the power of the plant and we want to, we want to lead people to better, you know, live better lives and and and healthier lives, and that's what this plant does, and so that's really on a very much on brand for us, and to be able to offer this globally is super exciting.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 50:12

I want to go back to something that you said earlier. You talked about how some people on your team think that you're doing too much, and we've touched on this global footprint and the US footprint a lot of, when there's a lot of things we didn't even get to touch on in this conversation. But I'm curious as we look towards the end of 2025, how do you make plans for your team together, collaboratively, to get together your plan for 2026? And what is your process tackling that?

Cameron Clarke: 50:46

Yeah, let me mention a couple of things first your process, tackling, tackling that, yeah, yeah, let me mention a couple things first. So, number one we'll be signing an mou today to open up manufacturing in in macedonia, north macedonia, which is super exciting, which will give us access to eu gmp, fully eu gmp, uh product development which we can, which will be able to sell in europe and in australia. So, so that's an exciting thing. And obviously we do believe in the globalization of the Kanha brand. And while, on one hand, my team says, oh my God, we're doing something, we're doing more, they get excited about it. And it's kind of funny, actually, because we started to have some calls with the Macedonian operator and to talk through all the product development and EUGMP and setting up the manufacturing space and all of that. One of the comments that was said to me was, while the call was actually focused on a few things that didn't necessarily involve the entire team, the whole team wanted to be on the call and it was six o'clock in the morning, so they're super excited to build a global brand.

Cameron Clarke: 51:49

I think, think, that's. That's one of the that's one of the things that puts a giant smile on my face, and so, while it's hard work and, you know, requires people to work at odd hours, at times they just feel like we're we're. We're. We're doing what we set out to do, which is to change the world, and I think that's awesome. So, to answer your question, how do we plan for 2026? Ultimately, we create a strategy, right, and we have strategy sessions and we define all the different things that we want to accomplish, which is a pretty complicated list of things, and we prioritize them and then we build a strategic plan around those priorities and we build timelines and then we build a full bottom-up budget, that is, by every general ledger account for the full cost structure and for our full plan for our company, and then we drive towards that budget. We do adjust it on a quarterly basis, but that's what we put together.

Cameron Clarke: 52:49

So, while I'm typically the one that's driving most of the new opportunities, whether it's new states, new products let's call it new product categories, because new products we have our product team that does that New product categories with the CRO and with the sales team and I said new states and then also new countries and new global opportunities, which is really where I'm focusing a reasonable chunk of my time. We just throw this into the mix and then we argue about it for days and figure out where can we get the biggest bang for the buck. And sometimes we're motivated by financial decisions and sometimes we're motivated by brand development decisions. But ultimately, I want to make a very important point here, the most important, the one thing that we drive towards everything we do in this company whether it's sweeping the floor or whether it's, you know, opening up in a new market it's all about building the kind of brand right, and so everything rolls up into our brand story and we make sure that everything we do is aligned fully aligned with building that brand. So even when we take on, you know, new brands and others in our distribution in California, for example, it still helps the kind of brand that we think of it that way. So I think that's really important for others in this industry to think about, like, what is your ultimate priority? And make sure that everything that you do rolls up to that priority. And if it doesn't, then you know, maybe take it off the table. I will give you a perfect example.

Cameron Clarke: 54:22

So we've been in the hemp market for a while, but not in states where we're licensed, because we don't want to compete with our customers. We got into the market because we fully understood where the hemp market was going and it was pretty easy for us to really see the value proposition there. But we had an opportunity to get into that market earlier, when it was all Delta 8. We decided not to go in as Delta 8, even though we'd been looking at that market for a year because we didn't feel like the Delta 8 was really on brand for us, and so we made the decision to not to do that.

Cameron Clarke: 54:59

I wish that I had seen a little earlier the true value proposition at D9 in those days Didn't look deep enough, right. But you know, you have, you know, and I still would live with that decision. To be honest, um, on the DA cause, I don't think it really was not bad for us and so you just have to. You have, that's how you have to look at it. And then you got to build a list, prioritize and then build your bottom up budget and make sure that the financial aspect fully makes sense.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 55:27

Cameron, this has been a masterclass. I think there's so much more we could talk to you about. I'm loving part two.

Ben Larson: 55:34

You got to come back.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 55:35

I have so many questions for you, so many, or we'll just have a private meeting later, but it is time for our last call. So, cameron, what is your final message for our listeners? Advice, call to action. Closing thought that you'd like to leave them with.

Cameron Clarke: 55:49

You know, I would say a couple of things. Number one I know it's hard out there, it's super challenging. Stay true to your passion for the plant, because we are changing the world and don't forget that. But make sure that when you're driving your business, you're driving towards that. And I would also say you know what no-transcript, you know let's and let's work better together. Stay true to the plant.

Ben Larson: 56:35

Yeah.

Cameron Clarke: 56:36

By the way, if people want access, if people want to know where to find us, you can find us on Instagram and our website. Kanha Bliss is our, is our licensed, and Kanha is our hemp business for states where folks want access where we're not licensed Awesome.

Ben Larson: 56:53

Thank you, amazing Cameron. Thank you so much, truly. A masterclass, it was all gold and for anyone just listening, it is K-A-N-H-A. That's correct, cameron Clark, the CEO of Kanha. Thank you so much. Really, we need to catch up soon because I have so many more questions.

Cameron Clarke: 57:13

There's a lot we could talk about, so I'm happy to do round two with you guys.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 57:17

Awesome, thank you.

Ben Larson: 57:19

All right, everybody. What do you think? Thank you for watching, thank you for listening, for commenting, doing all the things. Thank you to our teams at Vertosa and Wolfmeyer and, of course, our producer, eric Brzee. If you enjoyed this episode, please drop a review on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify or wherever you listen. Yeah, like, subscribe, do all the things. Just share high spirits, keep everyone's spirits high and it will make all the spirits higher. As always, folks stay curious, stay informed and keep your spirits high Until next time. That's the show.