Aaron Smith: 0:00

people have invested their life savings and millions of dollars into the current system, but the current system is not working and it's just imperative that we really see that long view and understand that for the whole industry to be prosperous, we need to expand the marketplace, and that means opening up channels for cannabis consumers. Cannabis consumers.

Ben Larson: 0:26

Hey everybody, welcome to episode 102, 102 of High Spirits. I'm Ben Larson and I'm back in action with my co-host, anna Rae Grabstein. We're recording Tuesday, august 19th 2025. We have an incredible show with you today. We got a hot take interviewing Aaron Smith, the co-founder and CEO of NCIA for the last 15 years, as he transitions into his next chapter of his life. So we'll get to that in just a bit, but first, anna Rae, how are you doing? I love that episode with Rama. You really crushed that one.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 1:05

Oh thanks. Yeah, we missed you last week, Ben. We always miss you, but I do have fun just going on it. I kind of like to hear myself talk. Is that a bad thing?

Ben Larson: 1:14

No, no, you're great at talking, far better than myself.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 1:20

This week has been good. My son is back to school, which I don't know for other parents out there. The summer is fairly dysregulating and I'm excited to get back to a normal schedule, and I have also been indulging in some pretty hilarious Netflix content. Late at night I've been watching the Hunting Wives with a lot of the rest of America I think it's like apparently the number two show right now, so probably a lot of you are also listening and it's about republican kind of housewives in a small town in texas it's fictional who uh, like to shoot guns, drink and have sex with each other.

Ben Larson: 2:00

Okay, the housewives it's a real this. This came from a Kara Swisher recommendation, I presume.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 2:09

She talked about it and I got very excited and had to tune in and it does not disappoint Really, really entertaining.

Ben Larson: 2:18

Amazing, amazing. Well, I need I need a little mindless content in my life. I was sucked into a black hole last week. Pretty much the entire week I had my team, the Pertosa team, in town. We do it once every year. Would like to do it more, but I don't know if I could survive more.

Ben Larson: 2:37

It's a full team, intensive. There's a lot of bonding and just learning and diving into all things that make us great, and so it was fun to celebrate that. We celebrated our seven-year anniversary, which, as a startup practitioner of the past, you know that was kind of a big moment for me, just to kind of like look around and see what we really built, to feel the pressure of reaching that initial time horizon of early stage investors. Early stage investors always set their thesis to seven to 10 year exit windows, and so pressure's on. Yeah, it was a great week. I got this awesome jacket that my team made for everyone, and people listening can't see it, but the ones watching the video can, and it's legit I gotta say I I was invited to your seventh anniversary party on thursday night.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 3:30

I didn't come hang out all week with your team, but the party was great and you guys really do bring it. When it comes to swag. The vertosa team is amazing. There were custom nikes, you guys high top with the vertosa colors. There was um embroidery going on like a professional seamstress of some kind. That was there embroidering people's names onto bandanas and jackets and really cool jackets. There was just a lot of hot style going on, so yeah, I mean you, you feel how you look.

Ben Larson: 4:02

I think someone famous probably said that.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 4:05

In a wind tour, possibly Possibly, yeah.

Ben Larson: 4:08

She's my new bestie, or at least my muse. Yeah, the shoes I like sneakers. I have more sneakers or shoes than my wife, and it's a thing. I need more closet space. But we started this thing a few years ago where we do Tosa shoes, and so this year was officially the Tosa 2s, although we realized this last week that we had launched a Tosa 0, like three years prior. So it's now a thing and it's kind of fun. I'm looking forward Like who do we let design the Tosa 3s next year?

AnnaRae Grabstein: 4:39

Yeah, and I let a couple people on your team know my shoe size, because I I do expect a pair of myself. Well, you're practically part of the team. Enough about all. Let's jump into a quick little news update so that we can then get aaron on, because he's going to be a great guest with a lot of things he is also the news in my book is the news. We'll kick us off with some news then uh, well news.

Ben Larson: 5:00

I. I'm kind of excited that it's been a little bit slower. You, you know we're in the middle of August recess when it comes to the Hill, but that doesn't mean that it's stopped everywhere. Texas is still Texas-ing, and we have now entered our second special session where the hemp ban is essentially the headline news, and so it's working its way through the Senate right now, and we're going to have probably the same fight that we had the last two times, so we'll see where that goes.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 5:28

I will say I think this Texas second special session is just a reminder of how much cannabis and hemp policy is interconnected to broader policy debates and conflicts. And ultimately, you know, texas started a conversation about redistricting in order to get more Republican seats and that caused an exodus of Democratic elected officials out of the state to end the ability of anything to happen in the state, which then resulted in warrants and bomb threats and all sorts of crazy stuff, but they're apparently back but also the inability to make a decision on the proposed hemp ban.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 6:13

So you know, we we get very vacuous in in our minds, sometimes on the issues that are most important to us, and sometimes it's something else, like gerrymandering, that gets in the way of all the time policy.

Ben Larson: 6:29

All the time, like all the time, like cannabis, rescheduling, farm bill, like you name it. We're always like at the mercy critical to us, it's a hyper critical topic, but it's very low on on the list of priorities priorities.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 6:43

Well, okay, other things high on my list I'm paying attention to.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 6:47

New York cannabis retailers were delivered some pretty devastating news over the past couple of weeks that the Office of Cannabis Management, which is their regulatory body, was revising the way that they were looking at a 500 foot minimum distance between dispensaries and schools and came out and said that over 100 dispensary licensees would be out of compliance who they had previously licensed based on this new interpretation of the way that they were going to measure and, as a result, this week a group of those retailers that are affected have filed a lawsuit against the OCM about this reinterpretation and the case will go to court on August 29th. There are already bills that are being proposed to align cannabis shop distancing with liquor rules, which are 200 feet, or to grandfather grandfather stores, into the old standard. That was the original way that the OCM was measuring, but either way it's. These poor New York retailers have just been dealt like bad news after bad news and had such a struggle to get open, and I just would love to see some market stability there for all these businesses.

Ben Larson: 8:04

Yeah, once again, just regulators having a major disconnect between the realities of trying to run businesses and, like it or not, you know, we're a country built on capitalism, so let's, let's try not to kill businesses, as we're trying to pretend that we're supporting them.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 8:19

Well, luckily there is some silver lining. We got a new state in the adult use regulated cannabis market space From Roll for Delaware. Welcome to the show Delaware.

Ben Larson: 8:32

Delaware.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 8:35

It's a very small state but there are a lot of corporate entities that are.

Ben Larson: 8:41

We're going to get lit up with bad comments on that. We're going to find out how big Delaware is.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 8:46

It's very important and I'm very excited about Delaware, so welcome to the party Delaware. This is a major milestone and yeah, and then I think lastly and worth mentioning is that there are conversations going on all over the country about packaging and marketing to children and how the industry should deal with this issue, and it's showing its head in different ways. In Florida, it's coming from regulators who are thinking about new rules on intoxicating hemp products. In California, it's regulators that are actually issuing recalls on products that are in market that they say are appealing to children. I'm sure there are lots of other examples, but this issue is floating to the surface and is gaining more and more traction as we get more mature into these different markets.

Ben Larson: 9:41

You know I know this probably is going to be far too logical for politics, but wouldn't it be nice if we just said hey, that filter that you use for alcohol, maybe you should use for cannabis. And if you don't like it, maybe fix it for both, because I'm not saying alcohol is perfect, but like stop treating cannabis like and I said this last week or two weeks ago stop treating cannabis like it's plutonium. Right, let's have some reasonable regulations put in place, and it's not that hard of a solve if you actually have functional regulating bodies.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 10:14

Yeah, I agree, because I am not going to sit here and say that we should market to children at all, and nor should we create packaging that appeals to children, but at this time, like you, go to the at all, and nor should we create packaging that appeals to children, but at this time, like you, go to the beer aisle and there's simpson characters on cans and circus themed ipas, and, uh, my son loves to pick out beer with me and he also knows not to drink it, and so I let him pick out the beer. I don't let him drink the beer, and that's also okay, I think. So I hear you.

Ben Larson: 10:47

Yeah, yeah, that's a perfect segue into our guest, so do you want to bring him on?

AnnaRae Grabstein: 10:52

Sure, today we are joined by someone who's been at the very center of cannabis policy reform for the past two decades. He is the co-founder and former CEO of the National Cannabis Industry Association, where, for over 15 years, he built the country's largest and most influential Cannabis Trade Association. Ncia gave the industry a voice in Washington, launched cornerstone events and helped secure legislative progress that moved cannabis out of the shadows and into the mainstream. Now he's taken a new role as political director at Unite America, which we're excited to hear more about today, while still staying connected to the cannabis community, serving on the NCAA board of directors. So, aaron, thank you so much for being here. After more than 15 years at the helm, this feels like the ultimate exit interview, so we're excited to get your feedback and hear from you today.

Aaron Smith: 11:45

Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm really excited to be here with you and although I feel like I'm kind of aging myself here, talking about 15 years, 20 years but it's been a wild ride.

Ben Larson: 11:56

Aaron, I remember coming into the cannabis space back in 2015. And NCI was so clearly already there and like the meeting place for all things policy, but not just policy. Also the business community. Pre-covid. We were having these massive events around the country, and I remember how honored I was to be able to host one of the quarterly caucuses in Northern California, which seemed really huge to me at the time, but these were meetings of the different ecosystems around the nation and we were able to hold it in Northern California at the Gateway office, and what I revered as kind of the place where all the licensed companies, everyone kind of gathered to try to push the industry forward, fast forward.

Ben Larson: 12:50

Almost a decade. You know, getting to serve alongside you and the NCIA board has really, truly been an amazing gift, also very revealing on seeing how the sausage is made and just how complicated the issues have become, and so I'm excited to cover all of that with you. But where I'd love to start is just a reflection on what has been achieved over the last two decades. I'll stop saying decades. That probably doesn't feel great. It's really easy for us to, as operators, get dragged down into how slow and lethargic everything feels, but maybe that's not what you walk away with when you reflect on the last 15 to 20 years.

Aaron Smith: 13:35

Yeah, absolutely. I remember those events at Gateway as well and I've been honored to work with you on the board and look forward to seeing what you develop after I step away at the organization. But you're absolutely right, as an operator I really understand that. It's easy to get caught up in day-to-day. It's easy to follow the fast-moving progress that's happening at the state or local level. But when you look at federal law, yes, it's happening at the state or local level. Or you know, but when you look at federal law, yes, it's very, very it's a very long game. But you know, as I reflect on the last 15, 20 years, it's we've been incredible progress. I mean even since the last 10 years, and you know when you talk about the 2015,.

Aaron Smith: 14:21

But if you go back 20 years, when I first started doing this work with the Marijuana Policy Project, even the California delegation of Democrats in Congress were largely opposed, not just to adult use but to medical cannabis, and my job at that time was lining up patients to chase members of Congress around the state and you know, show up at their town halls and such and tell their story around.

Aaron Smith: 14:51

You know medical cannabis, how that was helping them through their lives, and just trying to. It seemed like such an uphill battle we had. I think we had two members of Congress that would actually publicly express support for adult use and you know, you fast forward. Today we have almost the entire Democratic delegation in the Congress I think they're, you know, say, but maybe one and a lot of Republicans supporting this. We probably have a majority in the House for support for reform, a majority in the House for support for reform, and it's just. You know, the challenge ahead of us now is keeping the foot on the gas as an industry, but also just the challenges that every interest group and every advocacy group faces, which is that Congress is somewhat dysfunctional and we need to overcome that.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 15:40

But the fact that we're at a place where both, you know, the president and almost every member of Congress has expressed some support for some kind of reform is absolutely incredible slow things move, but what you're talking about is that there has been a massive shift in people's minds and in Washington it's just we haven't seen it translate into policy reform quite yet.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 16:15

I do believe it's coming and I'm sure people that are fighting for it are remaining hopeful. When I think about when I met you, we were both around the Bay Area. I was a young entrepreneur. I just started my first cannabis business in Oakland. It was probably 2009 or 2010, somewhere around there and I thought of myself as an entrepreneur and not an activist or an advocate, and pretty quickly I realized that to be a cannabis entrepreneur meant that I also needed to be an advocate and activist, and I think it was people like you that helped people that were coming to the space with an entrepreneurial slant to see that from you. About what that journey was all about, of creating coalitions between entrepreneurs and patients and activists and lawmakers, how you were able to create the bridges to get people to work together and see that we all needed each other at that time in order to create opportunity.

Aaron Smith: 17:20

Yeah, I mean, I think I remember those days that I think you were probably maybe what I would consider the second wave of cannabis industry entrants, which were business people that decided to join the, you know, to make something. Passion for the plant, probably not a lot of you know as much business acumen, and so you know, at the beginning it was that this, this landscape on the advocacy side consisted of the marijuana policy project normal and americans for safe access as the kind of three primary groups asa being more medical and these were groups that were funded by philanthropists rather than industry interests. And there started to be a kind of a rift around that 2009, 10, 11 timeframe where we saw business, actual capital investment, flowing into this industry. Places like Colorado and Washington were opening for-profit stores which hadn't existed in California yet and really just kind of changed the whole paradigm where we did get this kind of influx of interest from what at the time seemed like well serious business people, but there wasn't this connection to the advocacy movement, no-transcript. But our members needed immediate benefit, so creating events, creating member discounts, all those sorts of things I mean.

Aaron Smith: 19:12

And frankly, I was sitting around with the co-founders of this organization at the time and we were thinking like let's Google what trade associations are? We didn't. What do other trade associations do? I didn't know. You know we were cannabis advocates and kind of modeled. You know, we looked at, we looked at the beer and wine wholesalers as other kind of comparable groups and modeled NCIA as sort of just a mini version of that and then taking some of the real, you know, the advocates that were involved in the space long before NCIA and through events and other networking opportunities, connecting them to entrepreneurs, so to kind of share that knowledge, but also share it in both ways so that those that were really super early entrants of the market still had an opportunity to succeed from learning from the larger ecosystem seed, from learning from the larger ecosystem, and it's all about just being stronger together and raising all boats, so to speak, for the industry.

Ben Larson: 20:14

It's interesting that when you break it up into phases, that kind of really resonates with me, because I feel like I was a part of that kind of second wave as well, where you had this very noticeable adjacency to the advocates, to the medical programs.

Ben Larson: 20:32

We still had Prop 215 in California back in 2015. I found, at least for me as an entrepreneur coming in and understanding the importance of highlighting the roots and tying that to my vision of like, how I wanted to represent that in the community that was around me in the Bay Area. If phase one was medical and advocacy and phase two is these new, capitalistic but still emerging from the primordial soup kind of uh, you know environment, we're kind of maturing into this very now phase three, which maybe there's three sub phases because of all the waves that we we have experienced, um, but it's very capitalistic in nature and I I look at how divided a lot of the voices are in the space and I think it's this, this perpetual drive to try to represent different subgroups that are looking to survive from a, from a capital perspective. I'm curious of where you think we are as far as still understanding what we're all trying to achieve from a, from a larger picture Like is that becoming harder and harder to get people to align on?

Aaron Smith: 21:49

Yeah, I mean absolutely. I mean we, we we're up against just kind of standard uh, of business practices, of protectionism, where you know there's, there's, nobody wants disruption to their particular model and that's been. You know that was a bit of challenge. But you know, I look back at the as as I as I do look back way into the past. This was kind of the case when we were advancing adult use in Colorado for the first time. We had medical cannabis businesses saying no, let's not rock the boat, let's just stay with this model that we have. It's working.

Aaron Smith: 22:23

Now, fast forward, we have the hemp industry, which is certainly super disruptive to the state-licensed marijuana industry. We have a multitude of states that are all operating in different regulatory environments, different schemes, and some of them are doing a good job at enforcing their regulations, others very much, not so much. But I really think that the challenge that NCIA has and that this whole industry has is understanding that long vision looking forward. The industry that we're looking at today is a compromise. This is not the industry that we ever envisioned when we said let's regulate. You know, I've got it behind me. It says regulation works. We always said let's regulate this like alcohol. Well, we're not regulating. Everybody knows we're not regulating like this, like alcohol.

Aaron Smith: 23:16

This is a compromise that was sort of an interim approach that we were able to get through, you know, politically, and it was, you know, expedient expedient is the wrong word, but simpler to, you know, to sell this compromise to voters. But in the future we as an industry will do much better if we can open up channels, like you know, something more similar to alcohol, where, frankly, alcohol sold in the shelves of a grocery store like Safeway, or wherever cannabis products should be sold alongside those products. And that would be I would get a lot of arrows if I was still speaking on behalf of NCIA, saying that from those who have and I understand it, people know, people have invested their life savings and, you know, millions of dollars into the current system. But the current system's not working and it's just imperative that we really see that long view and understand that to be for the whole industry to be prosperous, we need to expand the marketplace and that means opening opening up channels for for cannabis consumers place, and that means opening up channels for cannabis consumers.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 24:28

I like that you just zeroed in on this concept of policy compromise, because you've also said that complacency is the biggest threat to cannabis and hemp today, and it occurs to me that this concept of compromise inherently means that we need to continue to evolve and and that if we are sitting resting on our laurels or accepting the reality and becoming complacent, then then we aren't realizing that there's opportunity to keep improving things. And I'd love to hear your perspective, as you are exiting the cannabis policy world, on something else of like giving us all some advice about how we can not be complacent and how we can understand why it's important to invest in government policy change in order to create business success.

Aaron Smith: 25:17

Yeah, I mean well at the federal level. If you look, we're talking about how slow everything moves. It's super frustrating to the industry, it's super frustrating to every American. If you look at, congress hasn't passed hardly any legislation over the last 20 years. There's a few big bills that have gone through Certainly nothing. No social issues like cannabis have actually advanced, and that's because of some structural challenges that we can get into later.

Aaron Smith: 25:49

I think just how the incentives to work together to get anything done are kind of completely backwards in Congress today. But it's also because of just huge priority. You know different, you know conflicting priorities. I mean we have war in the Middle East, war in Ukraine. We have, you know, there's a gun violence problem in this country. There's just all of these problems.

Aaron Smith: 26:14

Right that somebody came into Congress. Everybody who's in Congress is probably has a pet issue or two that they're really passionate about, and cannabis is probably not that issue. There are thousands of lobbyists in DC that are working the halls of Congress every day on hundreds and hundreds of issues and we're just a very small. We have probably a couple dozen in the cannabis space now of those several. You know thousand lobbyists, and but that you know. That is the challenge that we face the industry, through either PACs or individually, by talking to your members of Congress and by supporting organizations whether it be NCIA or other organizations, frankly, that are doing that lobbying. Because we only got to where we are today because of immense resources that were poured into groups that, before I was alive, even you know Normal MPP ASA, all these groups that would, before I was alive, even you know normal mpp asa, all these groups that got us to where we were before ncia even existed, spent, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars collectively over the over the decades, and it's going to take that to to get past this. There's no. There's also just no. There's so many other completing interests. There's nobody that's going to fund cannabis reform other than the cannabis industry.

Aaron Smith: 27:41

At this point, I don't. You know, we can't expect somebody else to think, oh well, let's just pay for cannabis lobbyists when they've got their. You know it's not their pet issue, there's a million issues, and so it's just that the when I say that complacency is what I think the biggest threat. I, I. It is something I really have become quite concerned over because I always hear well, first I used to hear big pharma is lobbying against us, which isn't really true. Big alcohol is lobbying against us. That's also not true. In fact, big alcohol now is maybe more aligned with us than ever.

Aaron Smith: 28:15

Or you know, then the boogeyman is the hemp industry. Or you know, then the boogeyman is the hemp industry. And really, the bigger issue is that the marijuana industry is collectively spending something like $4 million a year in lobbying, and this is a $40 billion plus industry. That's illegal, and most of that $4 billion came from the top three business. You know Cresco, trulieve, these, you know the top three MSOs in the in the industry. And so it's it's imperative that businesses carve out some budget for reform, even if it's you're talking a thousand dollars a year, something minimal, nominal, because that that's the only way we're going to see any any path toward victory.

Ben Larson: 28:57

Those numbers are startling because we've talked about True Leave before on the show and we know that last year alone they put $70 million into the Florida effort, and so it kind of goes back to this place of what you were saying.

Ben Larson: 29:16

It's like we're on this greater trajectory at the federal level, which is much bigger in scope and much longer, and we're in this interim phase. But the challenge that we face is that in the life of a business right, I think people have just become hyper focused on the reality that they're forced to live today because it's been so slow, and so I generally subscribe to the concept of just get involved. But it is hard for me to continue to push that narrative when I know there are organizations that I don't even know. If it's complacency, it is complacency from an aspect of the long view, but in some ways it's survival of what's here in front of us today, and so how do we get beyond that? Can we get beyond that? And maybe your transition's hopefully not indicative of this quandary that we're in. How do we convince people to stop fighting for the status quo when it's proven to not be what we anticipated or what we expected when we said legalize the plant?

Aaron Smith: 30:26

Yeah, I mean, I think you know it is survival and I know that you know maybe it comes off as a little jaded to say or cynical that it's complacency, because I get that. You know you've got businesses that are, you know, maybe not sure they're going to be open next month and so it's hard to invest in policy reform that we know isn't going to happen next month and maybe even not next year. But if we don't make that some kind of nominal investment in that, then we can guarantee failure. And I think that you know what I would say to those that are kind of feeling like they're teetering at the edge of survival is find a way to contribute what you can, even if it's a few hundred dollars a year or something. There's always a way you can change the, you know. Change out the brand of coffee in your break room, take, you know, stay in a little bit less expensive hotel on your business trips. Find a way to budget for reform and then deploy that budget in any way that you know makes sense to you, whether it be directly contributing to candidates or, you know, giving to trade associations, hopefully both, but that's you know it has to happen because we are this is an illegal industry and that I think that's something that has been lost in this third or fourth wave of investors and operators that have come into the space.

Aaron Smith: 31:48

This is kind of taking for granted that this industry is just going to just keep growing and that policy reform is just going to keep ticking away away, and I think that there was a huge wake-up call, probably in 2021, when we failed to get safe banking across the finish line, despite having a democratic trifecta in Washington, and that's when we really saw the downturn in the industry and so the investment and, frankly, if you're in this space and not able to invest something like nominally, like $1,000 a year, in reform, you really just shouldn't be in the space.

Aaron Smith: 32:23

There are a lot of easier places to, you know, invest your time and money and energy than Canada's trying to keep, you know, move away from the status quo is. I think that these, you know, businesses, particularly retail, have invested a lot in the status quo need to be able to step back and see that they, you know, by ultimately expanding the market to something that's more akin to alcohol, that will, in the long run, bring much more opportunity for them than the small narrow market they're serving, which is, you know, however many people that are willing to walk into a you know, a dispensary that's locked down like a prison, versus how many people are happy to walk into like a convenience store type of environment or liquor store type of environment.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 33:16

Yeah, Bringing up the conflict with dispensaries and the concept of opening channels and more traditional retail, I think yeah. When some policies inherently will create losers and winners, depending on the outcome. And if a business is a massive dispensary chain and that is where all of their investments are, it's very hard for them to stand with a policy agenda that would degrade their opportunities in the market and then, as a result, what we've seen is this bifurcation of trade associations. You were really the first national trade association that encompassed all businesses kind of holistically, and now we have all of these other trade associations. We have multiple on state levels and then in the federal level there's competing associations and in some ways I think that you could make an argument that it strengthens the narrative.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 34:30

There's maybe more people talking about the issues, but it also sows confusion amongst lawmakers and the public and the people that don't live this every day who are like well, why is that cannabis company fighting against open access at retail? That makes no sense, but it actually does make sense for that company if you know a lot about them. And I'm curious about this concept of just diluting the collective impact by having too many different voices and how you reconcile and now that you're exiting NCAA, like speak frankly, like tell us if you think it's, if it's bad that we have all these trade associations. If it's good, what do you? What do you really think about all these competing trade associations in Washington?

Aaron Smith: 35:22

I mean, I'm clearly biased on this fact, but this was something I honestly was really surprised that we had such an explosion of competition in the national association space so early. It's something I saw like, okay, this is going to be coming maybe in 10 years, but really it. You know, I thought this would be a problem we'd have after cannabis was legal or after we got the first piece of cannabis legislation over the finish line in DC, not so so long before. I think that that you know, but it's inevitable. So I don't, I don't. I do think that it's. It's a challenge that's unnecessary but inevitable. And what happened was when we started NCIA, it was hard to find lobbyists that would take our business. It was hard to find anybody in DC that was credible, that would work for us. Then, as the industry started blowing up and you started seeing lobbyists that wanted to represent the industry more than we could fund, there were more lobbyists than there was demand. So they started creating demand by starting associations. So the associations that are out there that now serve the MSOs primarily were started by lobbyists that wanted clients, and so we've seen that in other industries too. It's an inevitability, I you know. Like I said, I didn't think it would happen so soon.

Aaron Smith: 36:46

I think that the only and I'm hopeful about the future around this because we are seeing more communication between the groups. For the most part, ncia and the board chair, adam Rosenberg, has been bringing together some of these groups just to at least facilitate conversations about what they agree on, rather than just constantly sniping at each other. We're at least seeing some better coordination, and at least maybe communication and coordination is yet to come. I'd say so. That gives me hope. But there, you know, it's one of these things that I think is inevitable in the market, because there's politics. Politics is an industry too, and it's a big, big industry and you have lobbyists and consultants and all of these other you know actors out there that see an opportunity and, you know, jump on it just like they would in any other space access to the plant right and and the having to work past this interim phase of this highly over-regulated system where people don't have access.

Ben Larson: 38:00

I mean, I'm sitting in, we're sitting in california or you know. Still half the state doesn't have access to legal cannabis. The ncia and yourself kind of came out with this controversial statement I think it was late last year that really kind of identified that banning cannabinoids, whether hemp or cannabis, is not the path, that creating these new access points is important for the progression of this conversation and that is kind of going along the lines of this whole like kind of one plant narrative. Right, but from a capitalist perspective that's really hard, especially as we talk about the emergence of all these competing national groups. How do we get these other national groups on board? And I know that you just kind of identify that.

Ben Larson: 38:53

You know MSOs are a very particular type of business model that arguably benefit from limited license states. But again, that's not what the future holds and so I'd like to understand your perspective on are we getting closer? Because we saw a lot of the MSOs launch these hemp efforts and you know it's very transparent to say it's like, oh, is that just a hedge? But I don't know. Maybe they're coming along, maybe they're starting to see the opportunity and maybe in the not too distant future there's an opportunity to flip or at least blend that strategy. But that's not clear because of the organizations that they support and are a part of yeah, I think.

Aaron Smith: 39:38

I think that there's an opportunity at the state level for the hemp industry and the marijuana industry to come together, develop policy that that you know, compromise policy. That could be good for both sides of the industry. You know we see these. You know low dose beverage carve outs. I think we see these. You know low dose beverage carve outs I think is a good thing. Um, you know, I think we could expand that to beyond beverages. In fact, uh, and that's state by state and every state's a little different Some of these states don't have a marijuana industry and that's where it's super important that the hemp products be available.

Aaron Smith: 40:10

The federal level where NCIA plays primarily, products be available. The federal level where ncia plays primarily the reason that you know we oppose. Well, there's several reasons to oppose cannabinoid bans, but one is that if we all agree that cannabinoids, that thc, should be legal and regulated like like alcohol or like an adult product, then the path toward doing that does not run through banning hemp. There's just that banning hemp THC does not expedite any effort to legalize marijuana derived THC. It's actually quite the opposite. Everyone I've spoken with agrees with that, including those that oppose our position. You know some might not agree that cannabis legalization is that important, but if that and that's you know, if you're having that kind of a difference of opinion, then you know maybe we agree to disagree, but for those groups which I think all of the trade groups are on the same page that ultimately legalization is better for the industry.

Aaron Smith: 41:09

Broadly, we need to understand that strategically banning hemp first is not the right way to get there and that the compromise might be that there are these other. You know from a business perspective that there is the. You know now this competing, competing product that is out there that wasn't there before. But at the same time 280E goes away, because if we can legalize cannabis, then 280E no longer applies and then the hemp products and marijuana products become one. It's just cannabinoid products. A lot of the hemp manufacturers would rather just be in the marijuana space than they would if it was legal federally.

Aaron Smith: 41:47

So, yes, that creates more competition, but it creates more opportunity. Competition, but it creates more opportunity. As you know, 280e reform alone is something like three billion dollars back into the industry annually collectively in tax relief. Like that alone is a is reason enough to me to do anything we can to achieve federal reform and and good federal reforms that project sam and the and the, the prohibitionists that are pushing. They're pushing for hemp prohibition for a reason because they know that allowing these products to be out there is actually a pathway to expanding the cannabinoid market and regulating the cannabinoid market federally, which is what they don't want and it's what we want. So we should not be on their side of this argument. And I think I'm hopeful because it seems more and more folks out there are coming along to this realization. I mean the other, not speaking for the other trade associations, but they seem more receptive, or at least they're considering their position right now, probably because the MSOs so many of them are now in the space.

Ben Larson: 43:00

So I do think we'll get there. Yeah, it's something Anna Rae and I've talked about I don't know if on the show, but definitely behind the scenes where my prerogative is like get the products in the people's hands, like the rest will follow, like the supply chains will figure themselves out because of real capitalism. You know, like when, when you actually create a consumer category around something, even if it's through a beverage, carve out it's not about the beverage, it's about getting thc in the hands of people and normalizing it and giving them access and then making them realize that the world doesn't fall apart and actually maybe it's in a better place than where, than where we started.

Aaron Smith: 43:37

Yeah, I mean the, the what's happening on the beverage front. Not that I'm not pandering to you guys at all, but it is probably the most exciting thing I've seen, you know, in this, in this whole evolution of of the, the industry, because that's it's, it's a, you know, as we see alcohol use decline, which is a wonderful thing for the country's public health, we're seeing this opportunity both from a business side the alcohol industry looking to get into THC to backfill some of their losses but then that creates a situation where people who never would have thought of themselves as marijuana consumers are exposed to low-dose products that make them feel good and are a lot less harmful than alcohol. So it's a win-win-win win for public health, win for the industry and win for the economy.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 44:28

Well, so, as we're getting closer to the end of the hour, I want to talk a little bit about what's next for you and your decision to leave NCAA. You clearly have dedicated a huge amount of your life and your heart and your passion to this work, and it's been a challenge for everybody who's been in the space as long as we all have. And I just want to get real Like are you burnt out? Are you sick of this all? Are you? Are you just ready to turn your back and focus on something else? Give, give us, give us insight into where your head is now.

Aaron Smith: 45:01

Yeah, I mean I can't say that it's that it's been easy, that's for sure. I I I guess what you know. The opportunity that that's in front of me now is to apply the skills that I've developed over the last two decades working in politics toward some foundational problems that are at the heart of frustrations that we have as an industry about why federal policy reform seems to be stalled, and it's not. You know, this is like I said at the beginning of this conversation. We're not in a situation where the cannabis industry is so controversial that members of Congress aren't willing to support our legislation. We're in a situation where Congress isn't passing legislation because they're not incentivized Democrats are not incentivized to work for Republicans and vice versa to just pass common sense solutions, and so this is an example of this.

Aaron Smith: 45:55

When we talk about the Safe Banking Act, we have super majority vote for that or we did in 2021, and we still have a majority support in Congress, but it doesn't get over the finish line because on the Democratic side, you have members that are posturing and pandering to their very far left base, saying we're only going to pass legislation if it includes all of these social justice provisions that make it the perfect bill for the far left.

Aaron Smith: 46:24

And then you have Republicans who are turned off by that and not going to get anywhere close to those social justice proposals and are also kind of having to kowtow to the far right, which is still in the reefer madness era, when the majority 70% or so of Americans want to see this plant legalized, and that is what United America calls the primary problem.

Aaron Smith: 46:48

90% of seats in Congress are effectively determined in primaries, where voter turnout is dramatically lower than in the general election, and the reforms that I'm looking to help enact would resolve that by bringing in more, making the primary elections more inclusive of independence and making the general elections more competitive, so that when you have a member of Congress, they're accountable to the people, not to just a small number of primary voters that care about a very narrow set of issues. So I see this as not walking away from the fight that I've started 20 years ago, but it's sort of a natural evolution into and also just having worked in this field for so long. Becoming frustrated with Congress and seeing how the sausage is made made me realize that there are other places I could put my energy into that would help cannabis, but also a myriad of other issues that I care about outside of cannabis, believe it or not.

Ben Larson: 47:54

So what I'm hearing is the opposite of burnout. He was dealing with a hard problem, found the root of that hard problem is a bigger, hairier, harder problem and decided I'm going to go solve for that. That's right, Godspeed, Aaron. Okay, so you said something about the populace 70% of Americans being in support of cannabis, and this idea popped in my head, and I you know this better than anyone, and so I'm just curious if this has been done before.

Ben Larson: 48:26

Nonprofits that have been influential in the past that are not in the cannabis industry for me are like the American cancer society, and I know there's all these talk about where most of their funds come from and how they might be biased, but the original intent was like to give the populace a voice and for people to put their money behind the movement. Has cannabis tried that like are? Are we there? Yet? I it's. I feel like we might almost be there. Where we have so many brands and so many companies that have followings, Can we start leveraging the power of the populace to push our broader initiative forward? Legalization, access, safe access Generally these backroom conversations between the organizations generally agree on, but because of their very business-oriented constituents, it's hard for them to fully adopt into this kind of more altruistic path.

Aaron Smith: 49:28

Yeah, I do think that there's a huge opportunity there that has so far been somewhat underutilized. You have great groups like Normal. Normal's the kind of gold standard of a consumer-facing organization. I would love to see Normal, for example and I've talked to them about this, you know privately, but I would say here publicly that Normal should look at partnering with industry to activate all of these consumers that are coming in and out of dispensaries to either take grassroots political action, calling members of Congress and such, but also contributing at the point of sale and I know there have been similar efforts around this but round up your sale to the nearest dollar to support this cause, kind of a thing like we see at every grocery store these days.

Aaron Smith: 50:12

Because I think consumers do really want to. They prefer to go into a regulated market, get tested, product labeled, product, have the variety available to them only available in a regulated market, and it's also, I think, would be in the interest of the industry to kind of better educate consumers of why they're paying twice as much, you know, for the product than they would if they were buying it from their friend down the street. Because of taxes, over-regulation, all of the regulatory burden that these businesses face, and I think that is a huge undertaking and a great way for consumer groups like Normal and all the trade, all of those trade groups mentioned before, to work together. Yeah, I leave it to you, ben, to carry the torch and make that happen. In my absence, no pressure.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 51:03

There you go. Torch passed Aaron. It's been really cool to reminisce and think back on all these different chapters and and I really appreciate the leadership that you've provided the industry. So thank you so much and um, thanks for being a friendly face and I hope that you don't disappear, um, in this new role.

Aaron Smith: 51:24

Not not planning on it, not going too far, and, uh, it's been been great to to share this time with you both as well.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 51:30

Yeah, so it's time for our last call. We'd like to turn the mic back to you, Aaron, for a final message for our listeners advice, a call to action, really just a closing thought. So what's your last call?

Aaron Smith: 51:42

Yeah, I mean, I think, don't give up hope. If you're in this industry, I know it's super challenging, it's super frustrating, depressing at times. Do you know, as we discussed, take a breath, step back, see the progress we've made and realize the inputs that went into that progress. We actually, as an industry, we have far more resources available than we did, say, 20 years ago when we got the first medical laws passed, or 15 years ago when we saw adult use passing through the states for the first time. So we have the resources, even as small and embattled as the industry, it seems right now to do a lot and just take a breath, find a way to invest in advocacy in a way that makes sense for you, whether it be contributing to NCIA or another group, contributing to members of Congress directly that support our issue and if we all do that together, even in a small way, it collectively can make a huge impact.

Ben Larson: 52:45

Wow, amazing. Aaron, thank you so much. It's such an honor to be able to do this interview with you. Thank you A long time coming, but just had such a momentous part of your journey, and so we wish you the best of luck with Unite America. Please unite us, and it's just been such a pleasure working with you, so thank you for everything that you've done for the space.

Aaron Smith: 53:09

Likewise. Thank you both.

Ben Larson: 53:11

All right, everyone. What'd you think? Pretty amazing to have aaron smith on as he enters this next journey 15 years with the ncia mpp before that, now unite america. Let us know what you think. Don't forget to subscribe like write a review, leave us a rating, do all the things, show us some. Just as much as we love our teams at Vertosa and Wolfmeyer, our producer, eric Rossetti, thank you, thank you, thank you. As always, folks stay curious, stay informed and, most importantly, keep your spirits high Until next time. That's the show.