Mack Hueber: 0:00

we're seeing much less hate mail and more appreciative thank you emails.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 0:06

Hey friends, I'm Anna Rae, co-host of High Spirits Pod, and we are hitting our 100th episode on August 5th. We kind of can't believe it, but it's true. Thanks for coming along for the ride, thanks for being a part of building this community. Engaging with us. It really, really means a lot. We are opening it up to you, our listeners, in hopes that you will ask us questions. Anything that you want to know about us, about what we think about the industry, really anything. You can submit your questions by going to highspiritspodcom slash ask, and you can submit audio questions or send us a text, and your submission might even end up on the podcast. We are incredibly grateful for all of the guests who have joined us over the past two years, all of the listeners that have joined us. You guys are an incredible group of people that are trying to up-level what you know about cannabis, think about things in a new way, and we're just really glad to be along for the ride.

Ben Larson: 1:14

Hey everybody, welcome to episode 99. 99 of High Spirits. It's Tuesday, july 29, 2025. I'm Ben Larson and today I'm joined by Mac Huber. Anna Rae's out. She's traveling. I don't know where she is. Anna Rae, come back. We got 99 episodes but Anna Rae ain't on this one. All right, I'm going to bring Mac Huber on. Mac Huber, heirloom out of New York. Mac, welcome to the show, Ben, glad to be here. Thanks for having me on. So good to see you, man. I'm really excited to jump in and have you be my co-host today, or guest, whatever you want to identify as, but we've known each other in the space for quite some time, so it's really special to have you on right before we tick over into this 100th episode, as Anna Rae was leading us in with so super stoked to have you on.

Ben Larson: 2:07

We're going to dive into all things New York, hemp, cannabis, anything else, summer vacations, whatever you want to talk about. I'm here for it all. But maybe we start with the news yeah, typical news week in the cannabis industry Big surprise that Terrence Cole, the new head of the DEA, is deciding not to prioritize rescheduling. Who knows how long that lasts for or how true that is, but it's not on his list. So womp, womp. What else Texas, texas is Texas-ing? We're going from ban to veto back to darn near close to a ban, it sounds like, but there's a lot of backroom conversations happening there. How closely are you following Texas?

Mack Hueber: 2:50

I am following it For your listeners. We're not in that market, but obviously it's a market that we were hoping to jump into prior to this legislative mess this spring. I think we're just kind of looking at it as what that means for additional states and really at the federal level. I think what we're seeing this week with the news is just the lawmakers who are behind the ban from the get-go coming out with their starting points for the negotiation and then we'll see some concessions. But I'm not giving up hope yet. I was going to be optimistic. I think we're just waiting to see where that light comes in the near future. I think we'll see some guardrails around potency Obviously retailers which ones can or can't sell this product. But I'm not going to throw in the towel yet and say Texas is doomed is doomed.

Ben Larson: 3:45

Yeah I, I agree, I. I think we've seen this with politics in general, but especially in texas around hemp just this like deep anchoring and, who knows, maybe it leads to status quo. I think that's what some of the some of the postulating has has led to. But, um, we kind of jumped into the news. I want to actually do a proper introduction to you and to the company for those that don't know Mac and who are confused about Air or Heirloom.

Ben Larson: 4:12

Mac and Heirloom have a really cool history and the company goes back 114 years with the founding of Beacon Skiff, with the Apple or orchards, and so I always thought that it was a really cool connection. You know, in cannabis we talk about legacy, we talk about legacy brands and being here before legalization. This is a different type of legacy for many that don't know has had this kind of transition into the cannabis space, whether it be through cannabis or hemp, and I would love for you to just kind of talk about that. Talk about that journey and how it's given you a certain type of lens as it pertains to the hemp and cannabis space.

Mack Hueber: 4:51

I'll give kind of like the 60 second elevator pitch background on heirloom and Beacon Skiff. So, as you mentioned, ben, so Beacon Skiff, the parent company, 114 year old family run apple orchard up in upstate New York, right outside of Syracuse, at our core. Pun intended, we are an apple orchard. We're a commercial orchard where we also have a pretty robust retail pick-your-own apple orchard, which I grew up in upstate New York, in Syracuse. I remember coming here as a kid at least one weekend in the fall every year to pick apples with my family. That still exists today.

Mack Hueber: 5:27

But in addition to being an apple orchard, we do so many other things. We take apples, we press it into fresh juice. We're one of the biggest fresh cider producers in the Northeast. We also take that juice, ferment it into our alcohol brand 1911, into our hard cider and spirits, which is distributed in around 24 states. In addition, we also are one of the largest cold brew coffee producers on the East Coast. I don't know A lot of beverage experience and really you know how you and I kind of connected is when we first got into the hemp program in New York and the goal from day one was to make cannabinoid beverages. This is in 2018, 2019. Did not have a crystal ball knowing that THC beverages were going to be even a possibility in New York, but we knew we wanted to make CBD beverages and that was going to be a good jumping off point to learn and be ready for when that THC day came. And that's how kind of we connected with your old company, nanogen.

Ben Larson: 6:27

Nanogen. That was actually a really cool product, because I remember you saying it's like we want to stay true to the brand and do a truly organic product. Yeah, and no one had done that before. No one had done a certified organic CBD beverage.

Mack Hueber: 6:43

It was one thing that we, you know, have the facility and the food safety programs in place to be a certified organic handler, and it was like, okay, how do we come out with something that's truly differentiated from what's in the market? And it was coming up with a USDA certified organic seltzer you know of. Of course, no emulsion provider could do that, but you guys were willing to work with us to get certified and since then we haven't looked back and the partnership's only been growing and getting better. So really appreciate all your support and help in the last six years yeah, wow, what a journey.

Ben Larson: 7:20

Yeah, so, yeah, so happened. And then legal cannabis started to happen, intoxicating hemp started to happen. You know, like, how have you navigated this? Starting with that kind of like CBD beverages as an entrance?

Mack Hueber: 7:34

Really for us right. It started with a hemp program in New York making CBD products CBD beverages primarily, but building an extraction facility for CBD growing our own hemp. But then, when New York legalized, we knew that the market was going to open up in the next two years from post-legalization and we kind of hit the ground running, building out, I think, the largest dedicated THC beverage facility in the country. At the time we had no clue that D9 or intoxicating hemp beverages was going to be a thing. This was purely just a dispensary focus, but we knew we wanted to build something that could scale and keep up with the New York market.

Mack Hueber: 8:13

Based on projections at the time $3 to $5 billion, depending on who you ask, okay, beverages can make up 2% to 3%. We need roughly a million cases of production capacity a year and that's what we built and designed. It just happened to be that by the time that facility got up and running, right before the first dispensary in New York opened, the D9 beverage wave was building quickly. We had saw Minnesota the summer of 2022 ramping up and another friend and cider company that we admire, minneapolis Cider Company. They got into the D9 and them having a background in alcohol, having the same licenses as us when it comes to alcohol gave us kind of the confidence to move ahead into that D9 channel simultaneously while we're also focusing on the dispensary channel in New York.

Ben Larson: 9:06

Minneapolis Cider Company. That's trail magic, right yeah, so did you know Jason Dayton from the cider world?

Mack Hueber: 9:12

So our head cider producer knows Jason from cider conventions. Yes, the cider world is pretty small.

Ben Larson: 9:20

Yeah, small world, yeah, and I guess there's Blake's Hard, hard cider as well in in michigan. Yes, exactly, they're also in the game. So all the cider folks are jumping into the, into the d9 game. Love to see it, yeah, and and you have a a small regulated cannabis operation as well.

Mack Hueber: 9:38

A little bit. Yes, so we we built out a large thc beverage facility facility. That was supposed to be just for the dispensary channel, but the way the New York regulations work it's dual purpose. So we can make adult use dispensary products as well as empty nine beverages. But in addition, as your listeners know, the dispensary channels beverages make up 2% to 3% maybe, so we knew we had and we have a lot of extraction capacities. Percent maybe. So we knew we had and we have a lot of extraction capacities. So we wanted to focus on value add formats such as vapes, fast acting edibles, health and wellness like tinctures and balms, because we had that raw ingredient supply in our facilities. So while beverages was our main focus, the brand really spans across multiple different categories vapes, pre-rolls, tinctures, edibles and beverages.

Ben Larson: 10:29

So we do a bunch of different things and, as we've mentioned on the show in previous episodes, you guys are number one as far as the brand goes in New York right now.

Mack Hueber: 10:38

We have an amazing team that there's a vision, but it really comes down to execution, and I think that's what our team does better than almost anyone else, so I have to give my hats off to our team here.

Ben Larson: 10:49

Well, the vertical integration is an interesting aspect. What kind of benefits do you think that has given you?

Mack Hueber: 10:55

Well, it's a great question for your listeners that don't know. In the regulated market here in New York it's a two-tier, kind of three-tier, but really a two-tier model. You're either on the supply side cultivator, processor, distributor or retail. That's not the norm in most regulated cannabis markets but it is the norm in alcohol and, coming from the alcohol space, like I mentioned earlier, this is a very familiar market structure and one that I think even before the New York market got up and running. I think that three-tier model, the two-tier model in alcohol, allows people to focus on and execute what they do best. Right. If you are a beverage producer right, you can focus on just producing and formulating the best liquid, the best packaging, best products. Distributor right, you focus the best on, you know, ensuring those products get to the right. You focus the best on ensuring those products get to the right retailers and retailers. You're focusing on selling really what the best products are that you think your customers want, versus the vertically integrated markets where retailers are going to sell gives them the most margin, right.

Mack Hueber: 11:58

And ultimately the consumer loses. I think that's the main benefit of the New York two-tier model is that the New York market consumers have the most diverse selection of products to choose from and are choosing which brands will be the winners, not based on the pay-to-play models that kind of happen in other markets, but who has the best products.

Ben Larson: 12:19

I'm going to put a pin in New York because there's also been some news out of New York recently, but before we get there, I like going around kicking hornets' nests and you mentioned the three-tier system. It's like a very hot topic, especially in the empty nine space. You mentioned some of the benefits of people focusing on what they're good at and then there being the structure, what are some of the things, the downsides or the hidden benefits maybe, that you haven't mentioned yet of the three-tier system, having come from the alcohol space, experiencing it and now being in this kind of freewheeling hemp marketplace?

Mack Hueber: 12:55

Well, one thing that's different in the three-tier market for D9 versus alcohol is fair trade kind of practices. Right, in alcohol most states you have what's called like a price posting, so every retailer has access more or less to the same volume price breaks as the largest retailer in that state versus the smallest mom and pop independent store. Pay-to-play is prohibited, right, there's basically guardrails in place to ensure that again, the best products make it on shelf, not who's motivating the retailers the most. Yeah, I think that's obviously the bigger question around the future of the hemp beverages. But if I'm reading my own crystal ball here, I see this going more in line with TTB three-tier model and we can discuss kind of the nuances of that. But the three-tier model allows for the smaller, discuss kind of the nuances of that. But the three-tier model allows for the smaller, mid-sized brands to have a fighting chance. Right For your listeners.

Ben Larson: 13:51

Like, if Budweiser or Miller is able to own their own bars, own their own beer stores, liquor stores, that's all they're going to sell, right, if daniel can have his own bar, then they're only going to be selling jack daniel whiskey yeah, well, there's been just a very loud conversation about about this topic and there's fear that creating the three-tier system is handing the power over to the distributors right, and that they essentially you know, quote unquote own it, but they aren't necessarily the ones owning the stores. Are there like backdoor deals there that are where the distributors and the retailers are kind of in cahoots and like blocking brands out, or is it actually creating this even playing field for innovative brands?

Mack Hueber: 14:36

No, I don't think we're at the state of this category of maturity where brands are blocking other brands. I could be wrong, but I think there's just retailers aren't limiting space for this category. If this continues to have legs right, this is retailers see the writing on the wall. They're obviously seeing the alcohol sales decline, rathbeer declining the most right. So we know that they want to replace that with high margin products, and this category fits that perfectly.

Mack Hueber: 15:03

I think it's the challenge or the fear around the three-tier model the alcohol distributors right is you have to make sure you do your due diligence and pick the right ones. Long-term partnerships and I think that's the biggest lesson from this D9 venture is not letting FOMO take over and just going with the first distributor that says yes, it's making sure that you really vet and ensure that that distributor, even that retailer, is going to live up to the promises that they say. So you know that's kind of one thing that we've really dialed back is the focus on expansion into new markets, but really going much deeper into the existing markets, mainly because one we don't want to spread ourselves too thin, but it's also I want to really invest in the distributors, but also really investing in heirloom.

Ben Larson: 15:57

Yeah, also, you have this kind of bifurcated business. You have the regulated side, the hemp side and there's a lot of volatility with regulations and kind of this existential threat at the federal level. Right, there's a lot of smart people working on that that allow us to be here and just kind of keep trying to operate. So thank you to all those folks. I know people are working really hard on that. I want to do a little like what happens if a worst case scenario does come in and our community has had the opportunity to get exposure to these products.

Ben Larson: 16:33

It seems that beverage is really becoming a category and where people previously thought it wasn't going to be a thing, it now looks like it's a thing. Right, and people like it. People are consuming it, people are repurchasing it and people like it, people are consuming it, people are repurchasing it. Do you think society has had enough exposure to it now? To where, if these products were forced back into the dispensaries in certain marketplaces we'll just choose New York Do we potentially see that being a way to bring more people into dispensaries? Like, will these consumers of the hemp beverages go and grab beverages from a dispensary? Will that finally be a tractor for them?

Mack Hueber: 17:11

Yeah, I mean I know you and I have been in a cannabis beverage bubble I imagine a lot of your podcast audiences as well but I think it's no longer a proof of concept that THC can be in a can or a single-serve 12-ounce bottle or whatnot. We've seen meta ads showing as Google Shop ads. Obviously, I have family and friends locally here who aren't as involved in the cannabis community as much as I am, but now are actively going or ordering stuff online to be shipped right Not even from Luther Spencer. So I think it's just the awareness of this category has just grown exponentially beyond where I thought it could be two years ago. So I think, in a worst case scenario always trying to stay optimistic If we see the appropriations or something else the farm bill kind of closing this opportunity, I'm still optimistic that there could be something in the near future behind that a standalone bill or something of a sort that would allow this to come back, maybe with more narrower guardrails, so maybe a lower potency, who knows?

Mack Hueber: 18:23

Maybe something that has to go through or overseen by the TTD instead of the FDA. I just think the cat's out of the bag here. We've shown this. The consumers want this. We've seen music festivals promoting this, bars and restaurants asking for this. So I just don't see how this goes away quietly and I know your listeners probably would agree with me that no one's going to go away without taking in streaming here but I think the format is now more widely known that, sir, in states where there is only adult use allowed and not D9, like in New York, yeah, there might be some uplift, but it's never going to replace what the D9 market was. If that comes Again, I think it's just more exposure that this brand, this product category, this format exists, which not many people knew about a couple years ago.

Ben Larson: 19:21

And with the softening alcohol sales we have more partners and leverage than ever before in helping to try to procure that future. I do think there will always be a contingent of folks, because it is such a wide marketplace right now beyond beverage that people will be kicking and screaming, no matter what the scenario is. And I have heard a little birdie tells me that with the federal conversation that caps like potency caps are being negotiated and considered. So we'll see That'll be coming down the pike. But when it comes to the New York marketplace, give us a little reminder update on kind of what is available from a, from a legal aspect in the hemp category. And I know that there's been news coming out of New York where they just keep kind of fumbling it. It seems like in some ways, like many other states, regulators just can't get out of their own way and just are determined to make this hard for the regulated space, which is really disconcerting as we're trying to marry these two marketplaces.

Mack Hueber: 20:24

Yes, I mean kind of two issues there. One, the hemp side, yeah, places. Yes, I mean kind of two issues there. One, the hemp side yeah, for your listeners, right? So New York regulations changed back in 2023 that restricted an intoxicating hemp product to have a cap of one milligram per serving. And a beverage in New York can always only be one serving, whether it's a 64-ounce Pepsi soda bottle or you know a little five hour energy shot. So we can't take advantage of that. Oh, this is five servings in a can, so it's really one milligram Delta nine THC per 12 ounce can, plus the 15 milligram ratio of CBD or CBGs. You have to have a one to 15. And can you do? Can?

Ben Larson: 21:05

you do on-prem with that? Do they serve in bars and restaurants? You can. So you basically have to have a. Uh, retailers have to have a one to 15. And can you do on-prem with that, Do they?

Mack Hueber: 21:09

serve in bars and restaurants you can. So you basically have to have a retailers have to have a hemp retail permit. It's like 300 bucks. It's pretty much an automatic issuance as long as you apply online right away. So we are seeing some retailers, especially on-premise. We do a one milligram micro here in New York and seeing really good success in the sense that especially the on-premise operators want that sessionability. The one milligram is not for everyone. Maybe most of your listeners prefer a much higher dose but it's a great introductory product for the new cannabis consumer.

Ben Larson: 21:46

Yes, I love this product. This is my favorite one. This is the Honeycrisp. So one milligram THC, 15 milligrams of CBG, and it's made with the cider from the 114-year-old farm.

Mack Hueber: 21:59

Yeah, exactly. So that is our eight-ounce micro one milligram THC drink. That's just sold in New York. That's sold on our farm, right, so we can introduce people coming up to grab apples or our alcohol products. But that Honeycrisp really is our bread and butter. It's our flagship product. We have it in a 5 milligram B9. We have it in a 10 milligram adult use for dispensaries in New York. We also have it as a 3 milligram in Connecticut. So we have multiple potencies for the same liquid. But that's the best product to really merge the Beacon Stiff heritage brand with the new Heirloom innovation. So taking something that we literally brew on the farm, press it and add the THC from the plants that we grew here as well, that's amazing.

Ben Larson: 22:46

Yeah, and all that effort, all that heritage. Is that resonating with customers Like how do they like this product?

Mack Hueber: 22:53

They love it and it's our number one product in New York, both in dispensaries and in the micro the hemp channel. But we knew New Yorkers love apples, but that's even our number one few down south in the B9 markets. So it's amazing to see that style of liquid resonate with so many consumers outside of our home market. And it's easy to tell people from upstate New York okay, heirloom is Beacon Skiff. They can make that connection, you know, knowing that that apple was grown in our farm. It's still amazing to see that people want to try this product somewhere far away from New York without knowing the context behind it.

Ben Larson: 23:33

So, talking about New York, there was this recent article I just saw where they're reassessing how to measure the distance of a dispensary from a school or church and there's certain minimums that must be met and it went from doorway to doorway, to premise to doorway, and it seems like such a silly thing to implement. After the fact, this could impact 50 plus dispensaries, I think Over 100, yeah, over 100. Excellent. How is it now? Like? I know it was a really rough rollout for New York it has been seeming like it's been getting better over the years, like it's been opening up. People have been getting more excited about it. Boots on the ground. How are you feeling right now, with or without this news?

Mack Hueber: 24:20

Prior to last night, when this news kind of dropped, you know, I was coming back energized, ready to go. I was coming back energized, ready to go and I think, reflecting back on the New York dispensary market, we've seen a lot of momentum building. We finally feel like we have some wind in our sails. But obviously last night was really discouraging and I think a lot of questions around this still coming. So I'm still kind of digesting this, with our team understanding which retailers, areas of the state are most impacted by this.

Mack Hueber: 24:53

I think the question on this is just why now, like we're what, three years into licensing process and they're just realizing this so-called mistake. You know, I think there's a of theories out there. I think it's just too early to understand why this decision was made and kind of communicated in the way it was. And so I really feel for the retailers, the ones even operating as well as the ones who are just about to start operating, who are now really dealing with some hard decisions in their future. So I'm hopeful that the governor, the legislative body of New York, can make this right. This all kind of goes back to the MRTA, the legalization bill in New York. So if we can fix that. That would be great, but I'm going to try to stay optimistic.

Ben Larson: 25:48

like I said, Well, I mean, you've been through the cycles with the New York legislature and the OCM, and does that give you reason to be optimistic?

Mack Hueber: 26:00

Yeah, I think I didn't know much about government and how it works before getting into hemp and cannabis. I think that's something you have to understand getting into this space. I'm optimistic that I think the lawmakers understand the gravity of this situation, especially with the number of social equity operators in New York. I think New York market one of the big call-outs and accomplishments accomplishments is leave over half of the retail licenses are social equity applicants, which is unheard of in most cannabis markets. So the fact that majority of those are the ones being impacted by this late night announcement yesterday, I have to imagine that lawmakers will step up and do the right thing.

Ben Larson: 26:47

Yeah, otherwise, it just feels like this perpetual trap that the states are putting these equity applicants in. It's unfortunate. I want to use this as a time to transition more into the personal side. You being a leader of a cannabis brand, I'm assuming that this wasn't on the forecast of like what do I want to be when I grow up? But you ended up here. Yes, there's a cannabis brand. I'm assuming that this wasn't on the forecast of like, what do I want to be when I grow up? But you ended up here.

Mack Hueber: 27:12

Yeah, so just a quick backstory. So I actually had no experience in beverage production or in agriculture. I was working for an investment bank in New York City. I was down there for about 10 years and wanted to move back home to Syracuse where my family was and I found and met the family running Beacon Skiff and they had grand vision of what this staple in the community, this whole hundred-year-old business, could be. It wasn't status quo which really intrigued me. This was nine years ago and cannabis was never in the discussion. But I always knew that this family was never afraid to try new things and that was just exciting to me, knowing that we could build and leverage the goodwill that this brand, this company, has in the local community of New York and trying to venture into new categories at that time we're really ramping up our alcohol hard-setter division.

Mack Hueber: 28:11

But yeah, I think how I got into the hemp and cannabis I mean I've always been a cannabis consumer I think after learning for a few years how beverage production works in the alcohol space, here is when the hemp program, cbd market kind of kicked off and it really came down to just passion.

Mack Hueber: 28:25

Like I'm just obsessed with listening and reading about cannabis beverages, hemp beverages, anything in that realm.

Mack Hueber: 28:32

And that kind of passion helped me drive and focus more on where I think this company, beacon's Gift, could find a niche in the cannabis space. And that was really in cannabis beverages which, as your listeners know, a couple of years ago in the adult use made up maybe 1% of dispensaries. But I knew that what this category was missing was scalability from an operator standpoint and really experienced operators. We could write novels of all the mistakes we've made in the decades we've been producing beverages outside of cannabis right. So, taking all that, those learnings, bringing it to cannabis, we knew we could provide value in this category in this market with our expertise. So it was really just being around some really great people on our team, great operators who I learned a ton from the passion to always wanting to learn more about this industry, meeting folks like yourselves and Harold to understand how emulsions work. You know it's kind of amazing to see over the years how we've gotten to where we are today based on all the small little wins and introductions throughout the years.

Ben Larson: 29:40

And so you have this 100 plus year old apple orchard family that has, over the last decade, migrated into hemp and cannabis. The Apple operation is still going on. How do these two different agricultural products, the ethos of the two, has the family fully adopted it? I guess it's not easy, as we were talking about, and so it takes some resolve at this point and some commitment to really see it through. And so, yeah, I'm curious as to how that's been integrated as far as the entire company goes.

Mack Hueber: 30:12

Yeah, I think that's one thing, that we weren't going to just kind of dip our toes into this. And you know, when the families decided to get into hemp and cannabis, we made it known to our local community. We definitely got some pushback, but I think we've gained so many more customers since then. It's the same thing when Beacon City introduced our alcohol brand 15 years ago. There was a lot of pushback of bringing alcohol to an apple orchard where people bring their kids, but now most people come mainly for the alcohol. So I think what we realized is we weren't going to hide the fact that we were getting into this. We were going to leverage our goodwill in the community and our reputation to be like we're getting into this.

Mack Hueber: 30:58

We see the benefits of it. We make great alcohol that is not really making anyone's lives better on a daily basis. This cannabis we can feel really good about knowing that people consuming that are actually enhancing or bettering their lives on a daily basis. This cannabis we can feel really good about knowing that people consuming that are actually enhancing they're bettering their lives on a daily basis.

Ben Larson: 31:14

I've actually really appreciated Eddie's. Eddie Brennan is the president co-owner. He's been actually outspoken and supportive of the category and I've seen him attacked in the comments by some of that. The old community where they're just like what are you guys doing, like this, is poison. And the way he stands up for the category I felt was really genuine and it was really appreciated.

Mack Hueber: 31:39

Yeah, I'm really grateful that Eddie and his family felt so strongly that they needed to do that, because it's what this industry needs. That was a couple of years ago when we first kind of made the announcement. I think now we're seeing much less hate mail and more appreciative thank you emails for how much heirloom products, or CHC products in general, are helping people's daily lives.

Ben Larson: 32:05

Wow, that's incredible. I love those. Data points are just really important for us to understand the progress that we're making over the years. You know, it's like it's really easy to get wrapped up in the roller coaster of politics or just the ups and downs of business, but when we do zoom out and see how much we've progressed in the greater movement, it's really something to be proud of. My colleague at NCIA, aaron Smith, the founder, is transitioning from the CEO role after 20 years of doing this and moments like that you take a step back. It's like wow, how far we've come. I know it's painful, I know it's arduously slow, but like how far we've come. In that that that time period is is incredible, feels like it's accelerating because of of this beverage category.

Ben Larson: 32:59

How are you managing this as a leader? Like you have a team. Some of them are experienced in the hemp and cannabis space. Some of them come in from the hemp and cannabis space, some of them come in from the outside. What's your advice to the team to kind of keep them optimistic, to keep them motivated? What's your leadership style in navigating through that?

Mack Hueber: 33:19

Yeah, well, I think you hit the nail on the head when look, especially in cannabis, as your listeners know right, it's the daily grind, the beatings you take, whether it's from regulators, new looming legislation in New York, biotrack implementation that's coming any day now. Accounts receivable yeah, accounts receivable. I think it's really always taking a step, reflecting back as how far we've come and even in cannabis, looking back within three months, especially in New York, it's really eye-opening and rewarding to see how far we've come as a team. You need to focus on the daily tasks at hand, but taking a step back, weekly or every other week basis that we try to do with our team just to make sure they see that what we're doing is working.

Mack Hueber: 34:06

I know it sounds simple, but really I'm very blessed that I have an amazing team here. I'm not just saying that. We really brought in what I think is the best in class team leaders, really from outside of cannabis. We wanted to bring in people from true operators who ran beverage production or food packaging facilities not even cannabis bringing their expertise in and then I can teach them about cannabis, and so I think we've had a lot of success doing that. Bringing in outsiders who specialize, have their niche of industry. They work in bringing them into the cannabis space here, educating them, and then they can bring all their learnings and expertise from their prior roles.

Ben Larson: 34:52

Yeah, I love seeking that talent and bringing in and just adding it to whatever the team didn't previously have. In doing that and understanding the ups and downs of the industry, we have found that it's been helpful to find people that are passionate about the plant and have a reason to navigate the ups and downs of all this. And I'm curious do you do a similar filtering of somehow? Is there any particular question you ask about people's familiarity or love?

Mack Hueber: 35:25

for the plant. Make sure we have a smoking session during the interview process. No, no, it's not a requirement, obviously, for the team members here to be consumers. They just have to be passionate about this industry and what it can bring to potential other consumers. And I think that's really it.

Mack Hueber: 35:44

The passion has to be recognized that day one with a candidate and that passion can come from really intellectual curiosity just trying to. You know if they're coming to me on the first time, meeting them with everything they've been reading, listening to podcasts like this there's really no tried and true playbook in cannabis, so I appreciate people who come as candidates for roles here, who have really scoured the internet, podcasts, trying to learn as much as they can, and that just shows me, okay, your passion to really understand where the industry is at and where it could be. I just want to see that drive and that excitement, but it's not going to be like any other beverage producer or gummy producer or even our cultivation team. It's not going to be like any other beverage producer or gummy producer or even you know, our cultivation team.

Ben Larson: 36:31

It's not like growing apples yeah, going back to when we first started together, like in 2019, the, the candidate pool, looked a lot different than it does today and that's one of my markers for how we're developing as a mainstream category and like the talent that we get to choose from now is really awesome. But I do want to give credit where credit's due. I remember when we started working with you guys and we saw the first beverage facility that you'd built and how that was a moment for us for how excited we were for that next level of operator to come in the sophistication of of the facility. I just remember the team coming back and you have to see this facility. It's beautiful. What excites you about the future, like a year from now? What do you imagine those like those signals being like who, who's coming in the space? Where are we? Yeah, what do you? What are you driving towards?

Mack Hueber: 37:25

I think, um, if we look at just the products themselves, I think there's so much more innovation coming. We've seen really a lot of the innovation coming from an avinoid plus functional ingredients and liquids. I think we're just kind of at the very beginning stages of what that could look like. I think there's going to be a lot of challenges with consumer education on what works, what doesn't work, but I think effect-based beverages is going to be a huge thing. We've seen the success in edibles, gummies in particular. I have a lot of conviction that we're going to see something similar in a beverage format. I also am really interested to see like what kind of liquids continue to come out, not just the ingredients.

Mack Hueber: 38:16

But you know, we did something that was pretty unique. Uh, two months ago we launched a de-alkalized hard cider rose infused with thc and CBC. So I know you were holding up our Honeycrisp drink. But this actually touches one other facility, our alcohol facility. So we grow the apples, we press it, we ferment it, so it's actually a hard cider. We then run it through a de-alkalized machine so it pulls all the alcohol, but it still has that alcohol taste profile. It's drier, less sugar and adding in that thc. So that was a really a moment to reflect back on like, wow, I never would have thought that would have been possible. You know, two or three years ago, when we were talking about thc beverages. You know I'm excited to see more non-alcohol or de-alcoholized products like beers, wines and so forth.

Ben Larson: 39:10

Was that a limited run product and where was it available?

Mack Hueber: 39:14

I told the team that at first, but I think it's going to be a year-round product now.

Ben Larson: 39:17

It's all right, that's what Taco Bell does. They have their special menu and things make their way to the regular menu. Excellent. As we approach the top of the hour, I have to get this question out. I couldn't tie it to anything else that we were talking about. Maybe I should have done in the beginning. Where does the name Heirloom come from? And I know I'm sure you're aware it was commented on the event post. You know there's a little bit of confusion between AYR and Heirloom. Where does it come from?

Mack Hueber: 39:44

No, it came from my wife. I got to give her credit for that, but it really. It's a name that ties heritage and quality together, right? So again, the parent company Beacon Skiffs. It's fifth generation family run, still by the Beaks and the Skiffs. Just like most families that pass things down, you have a family heirloom right as well as just like there are heirloom right as well as just like there are heirloom tomatoes, there are heirloom apples, and they make the best quality hard cider. So that's where the name came from. Obviously, we wanted to change up the spelling for ip, you know, trademark reasons, yeah, so heirloom, no relation to the other a little.

Ben Larson: 40:25

Uh, just tactical advice right there. Uh, trademark advice, all right, mac. Well, it's time for our last call. It's time for you to give your final message to our listeners. Anything you want, advice, call to action. Closing thoughts what is it?

Mack Hueber: 40:44

cannabis or otherwise. I'm still going to be the optimist in the room here. I know there's a lot of looming concerns at the federal level with B9, but I still think. Look, I think the cannabis beverage category format is here to stay and I think, whether you're a retailer, an operator or even a creator, now is the time to get into cannabis beverages. I think we've seen the adoption rate of consumers gravitating toward this familiar format. The space is still wide open for who is going to be the best brands out there. I think we're still at the first out of the very first inning here. I'm going to be the extreme optimist that this category has a lot of runway ahead of it.

Ben Larson: 41:30

I love it. Well, the title of the show is High Spirits, so this is absolutely allowed and I love the messaging. Thc Beverages is here to stay. Now is the time, Get in, and we're just getting started. So, Matt Huber Heirloom, thank you so much. Always good to catch up with you. This time on air for our 99th episode. Very auspicious Thanks for your time today, Mac. Thank you so much, Ben. All right, I'll talk to you soon. What do you think, folks? Is THC Beverages here to stay? Is hemp going to survive the appropriations and farm bill in the fall? We shall see.

Ben Larson: 42:08

Thank you so much for engaging, for liking, subscribing, doing all the things. If you like this episode, please stop and give us a review. It really does help us build our listenership. Thank you to our teams at Vertosa and Wolfmeyer. Couldn't do it without you guys, but really couldn't do it without our amazing producer, Eric Rossetti, without you guys, but really couldn't do it without our amazing producer Eric Rossetti. Until next time, folks, stay curious, stay informed and keep your spirits high. We'll be back with NRA next time.