Andrea Baillo: 0:00

I don't want something to be a certain way. If I'm frustrated by something someone's doing, that's not anything I can do. The only thing I can do is make my next action and decide how I'm going to react to what's happening. And so if I can help people unlock that and know that they're in charge, I just am so excited about that opportunity for them to unlock what potential there is for them. They don't need to be in a position they don't want to be in.

Ben Larson: 0:29

Hey everybody, welcome to episode 92 of High Spirits. I'm Ben Larson and with me, as always, is Anna Rae Grabstein. We're recording Thursday, june 12, 2025. And I'm getting ready for vacation, so I'm really excited about that. Sorry if I piece out halfway through the recording, but we have Anna Rae to hold us down. Anna Rae is in Denver after a quick trip to Chicago. Anna Rae, how's the week going? How's the conference circuit?

AnnaRae Grabstein: 1:00

Oh, I'm deep in the conference circuit. I'm good. Yeah, I'm on the 20th floor of a hotel in Denver looking out over the front range. I've got snowy mountains out my window, and right after we're done recording, I'm going to be heading to the International Cannabis Bar Association's annual event to speak to the lawyers. And I just came back from the Benzinga Capital Conference where I was there.

Ben Larson: 1:25

How was Benzinga?

AnnaRae Grabstein: 1:26

Yeah, it was good. I was talking about M&A, which is interesting in the space right now. The environment's really shifted a lot, but Benzinga was good. I think that the industry has seen its fair share of disappointments over the last couple of years, but there was more optimism, and I think that there was optimism coming from unique places, and there were some new narratives around the decline of occasions for alcohol, tobacco and junk food and how the growth that continues on the consumer side of cannabis is something that all those industries are drooling over, and so if cannabis can just figure out how to get out of its own way, um, the if only we had a pathway to mainstream shelves.

Ben Larson: 2:14

Uh offer cannabis.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 2:16

Yes, Well, with that, you know there are people. Of course we're also talking about hemp derived cannabinoids and nobody has a crystal. And there's so much legislation in front of us right now on the hemp kind of accessibility slash prohibition spectrum, but everybody acknowledges that hemp has proved that there are a tremendous amount of unreached consumers in the adult use medical market and that's huge for everybody. No matter how this all shakes out, we know that there's people that want these products that aren't currently buying them at dispensaries right now or from their illicit plug down the street. They're buying them in other retail channels and in states that don't have programs, and all of that in other retail channels and in states that don't have programs and all of that.

Ben Larson: 3:08

So, yeah, yeah, well, it seems like over time, that's the direction things are going because of the actions that are being taken in places like California, texas and so on and so forth. So we'll see. We'll see what the government has in hold and where they'd like these transactions to be made.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 3:24

Yeah, and I do have some little bits of data to share, Took some good notes. I went to a secondary event that happened after Benzinga. Hoodie Analytics, which is a data platform that we've talked about on this show before, hosted a private hoodie sessions event for folks after the conference where they put on some really great presentations and invited some other people to put on presentations as well, including an excellent, excellent presentation from Frank Colombo of Viridian Capital, and I'm going to be reaching out to Frank to get him to come on. I want him to share what he shared at that event with our listenership. It was a really deep dive into production capacity in New York and he talked about that. New York really missed being a top 10 market in 2024, but he expects that it will be a top five market in 2025 and that it will likely hit $4 billion by 2030. And he broke out how he got there.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 4:31

Just to kind of recap who the top five state legal markets were in 2024, California took the top seat with bringing in about $4.6 billion. Topsy was bringing in about $4.6 billion. Michigan came in next with a little over $3 billion. Florida $2.1 billion market and, of note to remind listeners, it is a medical market and is $2.1 billion, although it's a very, very open access medical market compared to what we see in some of the more closed, complex medical environments like Texas. Illinois brought in $2 billion and Pennsylvania also a medical market with a lot of compliance restrictions on products, came in at $1.7. So the prediction from Brindian is that New York will slide into those top fives by the end of this year. New York will slide into those top fives by the end of this year and, of note, I think that Texas would also be a top five market if it had a more accessible program, be it medical or adult use.

Ben Larson: 5:47

Because we do see that there are two of the top five states are medical markets and they're still top five by revenue, uh, markets. So it's the. The disparity between california and, or, I should say, the non-existent disparity between california and michigan is is is notable. I mean, california is what? Four times the size of michigan, and everything I've heard about the michigan market is that you can go into a place and get a bag of gummies for like $3. And I think those same gummies in California are still, you know, $18 or $15. And so, like the math isn't mathing, like California should be way out in front and New York should not be fighting for fifth place. Like you know, these are massive States and massive markets and, um, that's great, I'm glad we're built, building multi, multi-billion dollar markets, but man, let's uh, I want to, I want to see a little bit more uh crunching of the numbers and just kind of highlight how bad these systems are.

Andrea Baillo: 6:47

Yeah.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 6:48

Well, what is the difference between California and Michigan? I mean, I think that you're right that both markets have massively compressed pricing, but Michigan does not apparently struggle with the amount of illicit product in the market and options for consumers outside of legal channels. So there is a perspective that most of the transactions in Michigan are happening in the market that's being reflected in these numbers, whereas in California we're fighting against a lot of other things. So, yeah, a few other kind of top line data points that I learned at the hoodie event is that while prices are down and top line revenue in some of these states is declining, unit sales are up. People know this. That means that people are not consuming less cannabis, they're just consuming cheaper cannabis.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 7:44

And also, you know, in these new states and overall, in the product mix and the assortment, flour is still the biggest category, but it is slowly declining and it's losing its spots to growth categories, namely the pre-roll category, which is growing incredibly fast and I think it shows, you know, consumers just don't know how to roll joints. They don't want to roll joints. Convenience is something that is really meaningful to people. They want to move fast. If they want to smoke, it's great to be able to just buy a pre-roll and in the pre-roll category in particular, infused pre-rolls are just gaining ground at a much faster pace than non-infused pre-rolls, showing that consumers are really drawn towards higher potency products per use, for better or for worse. Yeah, those are my data updates and industry updates from my time on the road the last few days excellent.

Ben Larson: 8:46

Well, thank you for for doing the work and being out there. Uh, it's been a little bit of FOMO here on my side not not being in Chicago, denver for both.

Ben Larson: 8:58

Whatever you're doing, the lawyer thing and and Canra happening at the same time, and then and then Bevanette as well in New York um, but I have been able to be home and be a little bit more same time, and then Bevanette as well in New York, but I have been able to be home and be a little bit more introspective and try to free up my plate as I depart this weekend for Japan. So, yeah, excited about that, but also really excited about this conversation that we're having today with our guest and kind of digging into the leadership. I think we queued up a lot of good topics last week in our one-on-one and I'm excited to dive in with Andrea. So should we get her on?

AnnaRae Grabstein: 9:31

Yeah, let's do it, I'll queue her up. So Andrea Bilo is a scientist turned coach and founder of Rooted for Success. She's had leadership roles throughout her career, spanning work as a cancer biologist in craft beer and in really important executive level roles in R&D and cannabis, both as the chief scientific officer at Open Book and at leading R&D at Green Thrum Industries. Now in her career, she helps executives and organizations thrive in high pressure, fast-changing environments, and her coaching centers on clarity, structure and human connection to drive performance and progress. So we are really excited to welcome Andrea to the show. Welcome, andrea.

Andrea Baillo: 10:16

Thank you, I'm so excited to be here with you guys.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 10:18

Awesome. Well, so let's just jump in. Throughout the conversations that we have on the show, we talk often about how cannabis is basically in a full-blown crisis. Constantly there is financial pressure, there's whiplash of regulation. A lot of companies have morale in the gutter. So I think we should just start by what your take on it is. Do you think that leaders are failing themselves and their teams?

Andrea Baillo: 10:50

I mean, I don't think everybody's failing themselves. I think a lot of people are succeeding in their own way, and then success is defined by you, as it is anyway. But yeah, I think that ultimately, people are failing themselves, especially if they're sitting around trying to chase certainty. So if we're sitting here trying to be a hundred percent certain before we take action or before we make a decision, then you're 100% certain that I'm 100% certain that you're going to stay stuck. So we just need like 30% clarity, a little, you know, 30% certainty, and then 100% courage and confidence, and then you can go.

Ben Larson: 11:19

You know, operating in this space I've tuned myself to. I don't know if I've had to like trick myself or convince myself, but it's like, oh, we get the opportunity to work through these challenging problems every day, and I've always associated with being a problem solver, right, like that's just kind of what. If you ask my wife, I'm too predestined to do that and so I'm approaching that every day. But like, what kind of? What kind of tools should we, as leaders, be outfitting ourselves to kind of work in this chaotic environment? And like, how do we come out of this every week, kind of with that positive outlook?

Andrea Baillo: 12:02

Mm, hmm, well, I mean, especially if you're thinking about it on a weekly basis, I mean instantly. I just go to like a scorecard, right, and it's interesting, a lot of people will use scorecards to look at different metrics, especially financially, looking at money and things that are very tangible. But behaviors are metrics that people should be tracking as well, and so, like, the work that I do is a lot is heavily focused on behavior based methods, and so knowing how your people are showing up, equipping them to be resilient meaning they can build trust, meaning they can communicate effectively, meaning they show up with integrity, they're competent, like all of those things need to be in place and those things should be tracked as well, like alongside the metrics of how much revenue do we make this, you know, this month, or how much their sales, or how much do we close or open. So I wonder, I mean, for you guys, is that something you guys? You guys keep in mind when you're? You know problem solving, and are you thinking about behaviors beyond just the numbers?

Ben Larson: 12:58

Behaviors beyond the numbers. I guess the way that we generally think about is we have these like rules of engagement. You know we have our habits that we've established as a company. You know we have ways that we communicate with each other, ways we show up, and we've actually penned all of this, so it's like what started out as a leadership agreement ways that we show up in a meeting and support each other but also like are very direct and sharp with feedback. We've actually expanded that and turn it into an entire code of conduct for our entire company and it's a way for us to ensure that we're showing up properly. But I can't honestly say that we have a good method of measuring it retroactively. Right. It's like, okay, we set the standard, we can call each other on it if it's not, if we're not up to to those established guidelines.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 13:47

But I can't say that we we've established like a metric based system to to measure ourselves to prioritize, slowing down to track things that aren't already so clearly quantifiable, like cogs and revenue, and that there is sometimes, like I see through, like performance management moments that people will sometimes quantify levels of engagement and quantify certain different types of leadership, but I don't see it happening, certainly on a weekly basis, and I think we're lucky if it happens on an annual basis in a really substantive way In most companies. There are unique unicorns in all of it, for sure.

Andrea Baillo: 14:39

I mean. I think that's interesting, because that is one of the reasons why I also think people are failing themselves is not paying attention to those behaviors, because that is what drives your culture right. It's not what we. It's not. Culture is not a vibe, right? It's what we. It's a system of behaviors that are, that are supported and nurtured. And so, without the feedback loops and without growing your people and equipping them to have the skills to manage how they're responding to what they're hearing, you know how to correctly communicate and be able to have healthy, courageous conversations with people. The rest of it really doesn't, isn't going to work anyways. So it is like I really view leadership as the backbone of any business, and I think that's one thing that's often neglected and does deserve a number on the scorecard.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 15:25

So leadership, like it's a funny thing because throughout my life, when I was younger, people would tell me that I was a natural leader, and I think that I had this thing in my mind, that I thought that it was something that was. You either had it or you didn't. And as I've grown in my career, I see it very differently and there are natural tendencies that I have and that other people have that could be construed as leadership. But I see now, as I've grown as a leader, that leadership is something that I need to constantly work on and invest in and check myself on, and I'd like to hear from you, as a coach, what it means to work on leadership.

Andrea Baillo: 16:06

Yeah, I mean it's a whole set, right, like I mean, ultimately, at the end of the day, leadership is no longer about you.

Andrea Baillo: 16:12

Leadership is about other people. So I think that's the first thing really you have to understand when you step into leadership. I think, people, it's not something like you can like I've read a million books about leadership I'm sure you guys have as well, right, so you can read about it, you can have the theory of it, but leadership is something that you learn through experience and it's something that has to be practiced, like. You really have to get the practical sense of it, and so leadership is an accumulation of the knowledge and experiences that you have, but it really is dependent on how you show up and what you're saying and what you're thinking, and you have to then be very reflective. So, for me, the greatest leadership skill is awareness and reflection, so being able to sit back, hear, understand what you're going through, what's you're in your control, what's not, and then moving forward with that, zooming out right, Accepting the things as the way they are and staying with what you can. Does that, how does that? How does that sound for you?

Ben Larson: 17:08

I, I, I. I mean, it resonates a lot with me. You know, I, I find myself, and Anna Rae and I are are similar in. The fact is, like we what was the term we were discussing before the show Middle?

AnnaRae Grabstein: 17:20

Like we were, we're, we're middles.

Ben Larson: 17:23

Anna Rae, can you define middle for us? Because I just heard this morning and I was a little offended before I got the definition.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 17:30

Yeah, I have to call out Andrew Lowitz, who was termed a middle at a dinner that I was at this week. And then he said, no, Anna Rae is a middle. And I thought what the heck is a middle? That sounds sexual and I'm uncomfortable. So I turned to chat GPT, who helped me understand that being a middle is about someone who sits in the middle of group dynamics and often helps move conversations, resolve conflict and bridges ideas. It's like a go between and helps people find common ground. That's what a middle is.

Ben Larson: 18:03

Yeah, so in that light, you know what I, what I pride myself in is my focus on ensuring that I'm a facilitator of growth for my team members. Right, like, how do I help them achieve what they want to achieve? How do I help them all align to allow the company to achieve what they want to achieve? And that's how I've chosen to run my company. Right, that's, uh, the the brilliance of the team is is like all these different constituents like come together.

Ben Larson: 18:34

This can also be contrasted with take some famous leaders out there that have a different style. Right, you have, like steve jobs, steve Jobs and Elon Musk set aside, whatever you think about them because of recent politics, but you know, they I probably wouldn't define them as middle type of leaders. They are more the visionaries, the ones that have. They're just, they're dead set on what the future needs to look like, and it can't happen fast enough, and they're going to drive their team super hard, and so we see success in like a number of different ways, and I'm wondering how. Where I struggle sometimes is how to rationalize that, how to take pieces of both, or maybe it's just settling in and realizing that every leader is different and that you just have to be confident in that Like what's the best way for a leader to rationalize that, one that I'll raise my hand right May suffer occasionally from imposter syndrome.

Andrea Baillo: 19:30

Yeah, I hear that. I'll kind of approach the first part, which is like, do I need to be visionary? Do I need to be integrating and leading? There's like, if there's books and I think it's Gina Wickman's book that talks about integrators and visionaries, and every company needs both. And so in small startups, it's Gina Wickman's book that talks about integrators and visionaries and every company needs both. And so in small startups it's really challenging for a leader Like that's where I think I see a lot of struggles is more in the solopreneurs and the really, you know, small startup companies is where there's a lot of a lot of friction and a lot of challenges and pressure because you're trying to operate in places that maybe you're not the most comfortable, in places that aren't you don't your natural gifted strengths and talents.

Andrea Baillo: 20:07

And so in your case, I think like it's perfectly fine to have, right You're, if you're the integrator and you're the one leading the business and moving forward, everybody, and then someone else is the visionary that's coming up with the 10 different ideas, and then everyone and then everyone's making sure that only moving forward with one at a time, right.

Andrea Baillo: 20:24

Does that address what you just said? Because then you talked about imposter syndrome, which managing imposter syndrome really just comes with being confident, right. That's where, again, I'm going to lean into the backbone of how I even got into coaching and how I believe and how I live my life is through perception and like what we see, right, how we react to what we see, and then the story we tell ourselves after, how we react to what we see, and then the story we tell ourselves after, and so that's what you're going through right there. You're telling yourself a story that you're not good enough or that you're not in the right role, or you know, whatever it is that you're thinking and that's completely like, that's with you, like that's the thing you get to own and you get to carry and you get to change and no one else is going to do that for you.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 21:05

You brought up getting into coaching and I think it's really interesting because your background has been at some really great companies and that I think are really well respected in the cannabis space both GTI and Open Book and before that doing stuff in craft beer and in biology and now you're doing coaching and I'm wondering what it was that took place in in your career that got me to a, got you to a place that that you wanted to make a shift and to reinvent what you were doing.

Andrea Baillo: 21:39

Yeah, that's a good question and it's hard. I don't know if I try and answer it briefly, um, cause I don't want to go into too long of it all goes back into time, right? So I've spent I spent the last this last spring actually doing a ton of re-examining my life and how I got to where I am and looking at these quote unquote blue dot moments and how they connect and what formative moments led me to here. And the short and long of it is that I was always going to be here Like this is where I was going to end up. I'm also what I consider a natural born leader. To be here Like this is where I was going to end up. I'm also what I consider a natural born leader.

Andrea Baillo: 22:11

I remember my first backpacking trip when we went to Pictured Rocks in Michigan and I was asking my friends about it Like hey, how did that go, do you remember? And they're like you sent me a list, you told me what to buy, you told me where to buy it, you planned the whole 42 mile hike Da, da, da, da, da da. Like we didn't make it. We obviously people were bruised and injured and losing toenails and and I ran to like the sheriff and like or you know, not a sheriff but like ran to find a ranger and got us rescued. So, like, I was always in that leadership position.

Andrea Baillo: 22:38

And then, as I became older that was when I was like in my young twenties, as I was evolving through life I started to see that, like I went backpacking through South America by myself, I started to find myself in very uncomfortable situations. I lived in a camper on BLM land, which is Bureau of Land Management, without running water or electricity for six months in Wyoming. And, like, I put myself in those places and, like, through backpacking and taking extreme hikes and exploring, because, a I like to learn, but B what I've learned is that discomfort is my playground. I find great joy there and great comfort actually, and I think that that's what I want to help share with other people is being in that space gives me so much growth and unlocks so much potential that even in this day, right now so, for example, you just said I worked right OBX, I worked at GTI.

Andrea Baillo: 23:30

I left OBX without a game plan. I left my job and was like I don't know how I'm going to make money. I don't know how long I'm going to be without income. I don't see the plan ahead, I don't see the road, and those are the kinds of things that I find that, when I do, I end up unlocking something that is what I was supposed to be, where I'm supposed to be going, right.

Andrea Baillo: 23:50

I always, when you get in that panic mode, I'm always like I will find out why this is all happening later, and so I know this kind of sounds a little woo woo maybe. I hope not, but at the end of the day, what I've learned is that I am in my driver's seat. I choose what is happening, and so when I don't want something to be a certain way, if I'm frustrated by something someone's doing, that's not anything I can do. The only thing I can do is make my next action and decide what I'm going to, how I'm going to react to what's happening, and so if I can help people unlock that and know that they're in charge, I just am so excited about that opportunity for them to unlock what potential there is for them. They don't need to be in a position they don't want to be in, and so that is why I'm doing what I'm doing, why I'm doing it in cannabis.

Andrea Baillo: 24:35

I'll wrap up here. I don't want to occupy the mic for too long, but why I'm doing cannabis is that is where I am very, you know, I have a great passion for the plant. I love as the scientist inside of me, I love the multifaceted approach of cannabinoids in the body and how it can interact with a lot of different receptors, and I think that there's a huge potential for it to be very beneficial for, you know, not only these common need states, but also in therapeutics, and so that's why I want to like really help this industry as well.

Ben Larson: 25:01

You're reminding me of a podcast I just listened to last night. It was this conversation between two of my friends, actually Jason Gaddis and John O'Connor, and one's like a relationship coach and one's actually a performance coach, and they were talking about that how in high intensity or crisis situations, it's really hard for anyone to see like long-term, to see down the road, to be able to create the space and the time to design the path forward, and so I love the fact that you just threw yourself into the deep end. It's like now I have, now I have to figure out a path. But one of the interesting tools that I pulled out of that conversation was and how the coaching helped was like being able to separate someone from the timeline. It's like like you have to be able to do that in order to create the path forward and to identify the steps that you need to take. But it really does take a coach to be able to help you separate yourself from the timeline.

Ben Larson: 26:04

Maybe it's weed, maybe weed is your coach. But yeah, andrea, I'm curious is how do you best position someone? Or when is someone ready for coaching? You know, like, how do they get mentally prepared for that? Or you know, it's like I actually find myself in this. You know I'll listen to a bunch of podcasts, I'll have a bunch of conversations, but to actually commit to something like how do you know when it's the right time?

Andrea Baillo: 26:29

That's amazing question question, because that is my greatest challenge. I find that leaders are very aware that there's a problem. I don't think they can pinpoint the problem exactly as much as they think they can, because they're just seeing it from. You know they're, they're just seeing it right now and haven't really necessarily dove into exactly what it is. Anyways, the question was so how do I get people ready? The thing is, people need to be in quite a bit of pain, unfortunately. You really have to be. You honestly have to be in enough pain typically for someone to reach out and look for help.

Andrea Baillo: 27:04

I think people who are proactive, potentially like both of you, right who are very engaged and very self-aware and already practicing reflection, might pick this up, as you would anything else, um, like maybe a therapist, right, you go, right, you're doing EFT therapy with right and you're, so you might be one who will go into it easier. But people who, um, the more resistors, like they are going to need to be in a serious amount of pain. Um, and that is what's going to drive them to to start working on this and what prepares them for it. How about this, let me? How about like, let's think about weight loss or something else, or trying to get in shape right, like it's the same thing. Right, like you need someone. Right, you go get a, you go hire someone to help you. Like there's, it's the same reason. Someone doesn't start to lose weight or start a diet? Right, there's this fear, there's this. I don't want to accept that. This is. I don't want to accept the truth. I don't want to have to do the work.

Andrea Baillo: 27:53

So all these things like get in their way. Right, I'm too busy, like you said. Oh, I have to count the numbers, so these are what matter. Right, this doesn't. So there's all of these constraints and limiting beliefs that are holding people back from getting the opportunity to talk to someone, to have a sounding board, to actually get the thoughts out of their heads. Because one of the coolest things that I've seen with people is when they start talking and I'm like okay, and then I reflect back what I hear they say. They're like no, and I'm like oh, so they're like huh, I don't even know how to articulate what is actually in my head, and that can be so amazing. I've seen so much growth from people when they're really getting into their head and pulling it out to verbalizing it. Do you guys have any?

AnnaRae Grabstein: 28:33

similar experiences? Oh, absolutely, I think that the perception of how people are being kind of processed by their teams is often very different from the way that people hope to be showing up for them. And I think that what you're touching on is that working on ourselves as leaders is not just a nice to have. It's something that's really core to leading a company, to moving forward in your career, even if you're not in a place that you're leading yet. And in companies we have this structure of corporate governance with boards and the concept that a board is there to sort of be a check and balance to an executive.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 29:16

And my good friend, melanie Curtis, who we had on at the beginning of the year, who is a peak performance coach herself she talks about building a personal board of directors and I really love this concept and I think that a personal board of directors and I really love this concept and I think that a personal board of directors has many roles on it, and a coach is one of those roles. If you choose to go and have a coach, that is more of a someone that you're actually paying to help you, and it's also mentors, it's advisors, it's peers, it's people that we can turn to when we're faced with the hardest things, who we are asking to give us true feedback and to hold a mirror to ourselves. And I think it's a really beautiful concept of this idea of who is our personal board of directors and for people to be thinking about it and even putting some structure around it and I certainly have it in my mind of who some of my personal board of directors is. I say, ben, you're on my personal board of directors.

Ben Larson: 30:14

I was going to say Anna Rae, you're officially on my board of directors.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 30:18

Yeah, but what I haven't done is been courageous enough to actually tell my personal board of directors that they're on it. I know who they are, but I'm not sure that they know who they are on it. Like, I know who they are, but I'm not sure that they know who they are, and and and I'm not in a crisis of my own personal leadership, but but I want to work on myself all the time, and so I hear from you, andrea, that that many times, like you're, you're meeting with people when they are in that crisis moment. But but isn't it good for people to raise their hand when they're in a good place to and be like, get me stronger. Like I just got a personal trainer because I want to have bigger muscles, I'm like, okay, I'm like, I'm ready to.

Ben Larson: 30:55

Like I want, I want, I want to, you know, my arms to look better and feel stronger, but it's not because I'm like I'm in a crisis no-transcript position at the top right and and that's true in business, that's true in your relationship like you just have to be relentless with, with self improvement in all these aspects, and waiting for the crisis is probably it's the most obvious time, but it's also like the most painful and the worst time.

Andrea Baillo: 31:59

You know, interestingly, that's like how coaching usually goes to is like I start off with someone we meet every week for like the first two months. Then it goes to bi weekly and suddenly it's weekly, you know it's monthly. And then it stretches out to where it's like okay, great, like we're you're on a maintenance, exactly Right. You're checking in every few months like, okay, things are going well or something pops up. Hey, can I have a conversation? Sure, let's let. What's what's new?

Andrea Baillo: 32:27

But it's really about like a you're like thinking about weight loss or something like right, I know how to count calories, I can. If I fall off the wagon, I start gaining weight again, which this is my story for real. Then I'm like, okay, we can journal again. Oh, I can start counting again, and then I'm back on track, right. And so it's really about equipping with tools as well, and not only for the leader but for the people that are leading alongside of them, and that's like the core of it, too, of what I'm doing is like it's really about the organization in general and, like you said, to the general health of you, and being strong is what's going to carry the team along with you, right, like a healthy leader in the very, very, very top. It's all trickled down. I know you talked about this, anna Rae, last week you brought it up.

Ben Larson: 33:30

You, it's all trickled down. I know you talked about this, anna Rae, last week. You brought it up. You're like it starts at the top. People ask me when we go to do an engagement, like well, who should we start with? Should we start with, like, the group of managers or the senior? I'm like no it. And so, uh, I'm gonna ask for some free advice for our, for our audience.

Ben Larson: 33:37

But, uh, one of the big topics that we talked about is like how people have conversations but walk away with different meanings of that conversation or different takeaways. And I just want to like dig into that because I think, from what I remember and this was conference mode, so my brain was all over the place but like this is a major tenant of your coaching, like make sure that people are having like effective communications. And I even think about it in my own journey and you know, call my relationship with my COo. You know it's like different ways we communicate. He would come away thinking I said one thing and I was pretty sure I said something else, and we have the same conversation. We just had two different meanings that that we walked away with. So, like how do you, can you, can you cue us up a little bit with, with, with that and and how you think about it, and then know things that we can work with to kind of avoid those situations.

Andrea Baillo: 34:34

I mean, the main thing I would say is, I mean, it depends on every situation, any conversation you're having, but, like, who are you talking to and how are they going to respond when they hear what you're about to say, Right? And so, like you can't really like it's, it's foolish to actually put yourself in someone else's shoes. I really do think that. But knowing who you're talking to and then deciding how to say something to them, knowing who they are Right. So that's how, like, typically, I prep people with those, um, you know, high stakes conversations with what do you what? Who are they what? What are their motivations, what are they going to? What are what's going to rub them, what's going to create friction and what are you going to do once you deliver it and friction has started? Like, how are we? What's the worst thing that's going to happen? What's going to happen next? And so those are the kind of conversations I might have with you around this specific conversation, right, or whatever it is you're trying to get across, when you're slowing down and you're thinking about what you're saying and how you're delivering it, how you're communicating. There's like eight.

Andrea Baillo: 35:34

I have a little framework for communication and different bricks. I call them like bricks of communication and what you're trying to achieve and different phrasing you can use. For example, I have a client right now who you know right away. They were like well, we want to make sure that you know it's. They kind of are using these terms like me versus him, and I was like whoa, whoa, whoa, Like right there, we need to rephrase. If you're going to bring this up to them, it needs to be like we, as the company, need this Right. So it is a lot of about communication and understanding the situation that you're in, and that's what's fun about coaching is you can actually think, you can slow down and actually like strategize, like you're strategizing your business plan, strategize your conversations yeah, so okay.

Ben Larson: 36:15

So even if you do those and you try to put yourself in those conversations, you build that framework. One of the things that's like a very natural human response to tough conversation you you mentioned me versus him and like that's like creates an, a natural opposite opposition. Even if you put kind of a nice framing to it and say like we as a company need this and you are not achieving that, there's a defensiveness that comes in and what we're trying to kind of ingrain in our company is that we're setting like a an expectation that we're all here on the same mission. We're all here to improve each other. So like defens while human, is also like kind of a barrier to progression, right, and so how do you work beyond that?

Ben Larson: 37:01

Because it's one thing to say, it's one thing to set the intentions, but like defensiveness is just like a human nature. And so, coming out of a conversation, you know how do you measure your success in that conversation as far as like communicating what you needed to communicate and then also making sure that like are we in a good place? Like I delivered some you know some direct feedback, like are you feeling okay about it? You know it's like, how do you make sure it was productive?

Andrea Baillo: 37:28

Right, I mean step one. Like it sounds like you have to have psychological safety, right. That's like the key to having any type of any type of courageous conversation with someone where you can provide that kind of feedback and you to be prepared to get it back yourself, right. Like so, if you just to find it really well, like you need to have full communication loops and providing constant feedback and really asking you know that person, if they're, if they're, if they are being reactive, I mean, where's that discomfort coming from? Like what, what? Where's the fear? And so I do this thing it's like fear signature mapping where I mean for me, I get like red in the face. This is where you have to equip your leaders, right. They have to be strong to lead us on alongside you, like understanding. Where that, like I was saying, I get red in the face. I hear something and it's a matter of you. You feel the discomfort, you pause, like this person needs to pause, right, like you can't help them through that. So, like you're doing what you can do Now they need to do what they can do. This is a big part of the ownership piece that I talk about, which is like you cannot carry that person's problem, like that is not for you to solve or for you to like, it's for you to equip them to solve for themselves, to give them the coach Like that person might need a coach they might need to work through and talk about.

Andrea Baillo: 38:40

Hey, this discomfort comes in when I hear X. Okay, what happens? What is it emotionally, what is it mentally, what do you feel physically when that happens? Can you pause long enough, whether it's seconds or maybe it's a whole day, and then can you make a new choice. When that happens next time, make one choice. And then can you make a new choice when that happens next time, like, make one choice. And then, okay, great, now I've repatterned, now I'm expanding and oh, here comes the discomfort again. But what I hear all the time with clients is they're in loops and they just they're like, oh well, that'll happen. And then I'm just going to get pissed off about it and I'm like, okay, well, is that? What it sounds like to me is, you know, the person needs to understand where this is comfort is coming from and check it and make a new choice yeah, yeah, the the loops concept is has been recurring in in my eft therapy with with my wife.

Ben Larson: 39:32

Uh, I don't have to reveal too much, but we have loops and certain triggers and you know they can lead to downward spirals, which are always fun to manage. Identifying them is the step and I find that's what coaching and therapy has been really great for is just identifying what those triggers are, what those loops are, and like, once you've named them and identified them, that it's easier not to fall into them.

Andrea Baillo: 39:58

Yeah, like, for example, the other day I was just riding, I was going to ride my bike and I went to check my tire 30 minutes before the ride and I was on a group ride and so I check it and it's flat and I was like, oh no, so I start changing it and I cannot get the tire off. It's so mad. And I clicked into my mode. I'm like, oh, I'm distressed, I'm angry, I'm under tight, I'm under pressure, I'm freaking out and I start my, I go into my spiral, which is like I do verbal attacks.

Andrea Baillo: 40:20

So I'm just like verbally attacking myself, right, I'm like ah son of a bitch, like, ah, get away from me, the dog, the dog's coming to me. I'm like get away, get away. And so anyways happened. This is what you do when you're out of gas and you're frustrated, like, and that is it. Like, it's fine. I just made a mistake. I don't love the way I acted. Fortunately, nobody saw it, although I just told everybody about it. And I now, though, get to like I have awareness around it, like that is it. Like give, and then I give myself. You know, everyone deserves some acknowledgement, and some, like you know, give yourself some encouragement Like, okay, I know what happens next time. Maybe I'll act a little differently, I won't, you know. So that's like what it's really all about.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 41:00

I think what you're saying is making me think about just this concept of, as leaders, going easy on ourself too, like we're going to make mistakes People make mistakes and also we have incredibly high expectations of ourselves, first of the people that we work with, all of it. And if we can sit back and somehow say, okay, like I just fucked up and I can also repair that, like there is an option to fix it, either with the people who I fucked up with or with myself, there's so much externally going on around us, and you talked about what we can control and what we can't, and that is like the front line. For me, every day is just constantly like looking at it as if it's like a video game of like moving things from side to side of is this in my control or is this not so that then, if it's something that's in my control, then I understand that okay, this is something for me to grab and go deeper on, and if it's not in my control, then I need to try to not react and maybe to respond actually, and understanding the difference between those two things and giving myself the grace to just be like all right, that is something that I can't control. Have I done everything that I can do and did I show up in a way that I can be proud of? That's it kind of that's what it comes back to. That's the central of it all.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 42:23

But there's a lot happening and there's so many things coming at us. Yesterday, when I was at the, I was at the hoodie analytics data day, you know, and we were all sitting trying to learn about things that were going on in the cannabis industry and someone was saying I'm really distracted about what's going on in LA. It was someone who lives in LA and was thinking about their kids that were there. It's just like I can't focus on what's right in front of me because I'm worried about immigration raids in Los Angeles and my daughter at home, and I was like, yeah, that makes sense. It's kind of hard to focus on data when we have all these other things going on that are outside of our control and giving ourselves the grace to like maybe this isn't the moment to be really focused on data if you have all this other stuff going on and that's okay.

Andrea Baillo: 43:09

You know, it's funny too because you're triggering the thought too, like when you're in, when you focus on what's in your control, you can actually. Then, like you said, you can actually change things where you make decisions. It goes back to accountability, which is something I did want to touch on here, which is like then you're staying accountable for the things that you are supposed to be, instead of someone else's problem. Like I had a employee one time who came in and she was just like panicked and stressed out because her husband this and this, and that I was like, can you do? You can't do anything for your husband's situation, correct, or can you? No, I can't.

Andrea Baillo: 43:40

So why is that on the table today? Like let's put that one to the side like right and let's deal with, like yes, the emotional and blah, blah, blah. Like yes, that affects you, but like right now, like that's with you, which is like letting people carry their own and you facilitating their growth. I love that you said that in the very beginning. It stuck with me. That's actually this like a hallmark of it. That's a core competency of a coach is evoking awareness and facilitating growth, and so you doing that for your team is already like a huge win and probably why you guys are doing so well.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 44:14

So it sounds like, andrea, what you're trying to do is turn all of your coaches, that all of your clients that are teacher, that are in coaching, into coaches themselves with their team. I mean, if you can pass along.

Andrea Baillo: 44:27

Look, yeah, I would say I'm not trying to like gain, like I don't want people to be with me forever, like I mean I love all my clients and want to like spend time with them, but I'm really trying to equip people to be strong on their own and maintenance, like you said. Yeah, come back, we can have conversations and keep touching base. I still talk to my coach. I had my coach and we talk once every six months or every year now. Um, especially when I, when I quit my job, I was like I need to talk to you.

Andrea Baillo: 45:02

Right, so, um, of course, yeah, I'm going to end right there, it sounds like it'd be nice if you wrote a manual or a book about this so that you could teach people more broadly. Well, I actually am writing a book right now, but it's not a leadership book, but it is about the power of perception. So that'll be queued up next year.

Ben Larson: 45:18

Tell us a little bit more about that, Because I think power perception it sounds like it almost relates to what we were talking about earlier, about having conversations with each other and, you know, communicating but being being understood and the difference between the two.

Andrea Baillo: 45:29

Yeah, I think it's going to really channel in some of my my science nature, which is actually this is more psychology, and I'm a hard, hard scientist, right, a bi. Actually, this is more psychology, and I'm a hard, I'm a hard scientist, right, a biologist but I've really been enjoying psychology, and so it'll touch on some of the core psychological things that happen when we make decisions and judgments, and reactions and responses, and empathy and ownership and accountability and inception all these things that happen when we're when we're experiencing, when we're in the situation of, like, what we're seeing or how we're reacting, or what we're saying about what happened, and so it'll touch on that, and then it also will share a lot of stories about me. So it's going to be a nice, vulnerable moment for me to share some stories about my experiences with perception and reactions and story writing, and then also put in some real world examples. So the ultimate goal of the book, though, is just to remind people that, again, like what's my this is my call to action here at the end anyway which is like this that you are in your driver's seat and this, it reminds me, my mom would always tell me as a kid and I would watching her tell my niece, like oh, you're upset, you're crying because so-and-so took your doll or whatever. Like, don't give them your power, don't let them know. Right, don't give them your power. And I'm like, oh yeah, but actually what she is saying is exactly that. Like that you are in charge. So like, if this is what that is, then it is, but if it's not, let it be something else. Right, like that's the power of like you get to decide. Are you going to let this be this way or are you not? It's, you know, mel Robbins does this. You're like, let them let them. Like you're in charge of your world.

Andrea Baillo: 47:09

Like as soon as when I realized that we didn't really touch this, but part of the coaching thing was when I that's when I realized like the unlock from my coaching, the thing I worked on, was active listening and um and a fun one. And what that really did open up for me is when I was listening. That's when I started realizing that I was choosing all these other stories. I was like creating things that weren't really there. I was just that's my story. I was like this person's that way, this is that way, and those were all limiting me. And so when I was able to realize that wasn't all true, which is what I want to share in this book. Then that's when the unlock came and I was able to just I don't need clarity, right, I don't. I don't need certainty, I know, I just need confidence and courage to take the next step yeah, so tying, tying that back to to the cannabis industry.

Ben Larson: 47:52

You know, there there's a lot that is outside of our control and it's you know. You can watch the conversations on LinkedIn and things can get pretty spicy at times amongst different groups and I just there's so much emotion wrapped up into it and in a lot of cases, it is our occupational livelihood that's at stake. It is our occupational livelihood that's at stake, and so you know how, how, how do we help leaders rationalize that show confidently and retain their power when so much feels?

Andrea Baillo: 48:27

outside of their control.

Andrea Baillo: 48:29

Yep. Well, like I said, I'm just going to go back to this clarity Like you don't get to wait for it, you have to create it. And how you create it is you stop. You do have to pause, and I'm not saying, you know, some people are like I don't have time, time, I maybe pause for two seconds, I don't know how long, but like you need to pause and you have to zoom out. You just have to. You have to slow down. You have to face the facts and get real about what's happening and name it. This is what's happening.

Andrea Baillo: 48:54

And then you have to make a plan Right, and you have to know what you'll do when things might need to change. So there's these things called like reverse accountability charts. So if we're going back to, like the business concept here, which is like you don't share that with everybody, but you're going to have to have a plan for what it could look like when things are different, like you can't just say let's hope it doesn't go there, like you do need to create a plan and Like you do need to create a plan, and then you have to stick to what works, which means this is, I think, one of one of cannabis's biggest challenges. You cannot get distracted by shiny objects. Stay focused on what you're doing and what your processes are and stay the course Right.

Andrea Baillo: 49:29

This is when you have to really lean back into your mission, your vision, your values and your purpose. What are you doing? What are you guys doing? What does everyone know they're supposed to be doing? And like, stay focused on that and then, ultimately, at the end of the day, like the whole, what we've been talking about a lot is like you have to lead by example. So you have to eat well, you have to exercise. You have to be leading and showing up like it, you know, like it matters every day. I love that. I.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 49:53

I often tell people that that when they work with me, we're going to put the skunk on the table and we're talking about their business, but I think that you're just talking about this idea of getting out of denial, accepting what the reality is and then trying to take action in the ways that you can. Andrea, this has been an awesome conversation. It's really great to get to think bigger about reframing leadership, and especially in cannabis, because I just don't want it to be forgotten as companies are facing their toughest challenges and biggest opportunities, to remember that investing in leadership is something that is so critically important. And so we're going to be an ally and a voice on this show and in our content, always for leaders to continue growing. And as we're wrapping up our hour, I'm wondering if you could give us a last call and what is your final message for our listeners Any call to action that you'd like to leave people with?

Andrea Baillo: 50:51

So my original call to action. I feel like I've beaten to death here, so I'm going to leave that one for everybody to let marinate further. But I think that I think, ultimately, what I want people to remember too is about this if you're not leading with intention and attention, then you're just leading by accident.

Ben Larson: 51:12

I love that. I love it. Intention and attention. Presence is a word that we use a lot in our company. If you're signing up for a meeting, be there. Stop multitasking, which has become very easy to do in this virtual world. But, andrea, I really appreciate it. Always love connecting with you and just jamming on leadership and psychology and looking forward to many conversations to come. So thank you for spending the last hour with us.

Andrea Baillo: 51:45

Amazing. Thank you so much. I had such a great time and I'll look forward to seeing you guys both soon.

Ben Larson: 51:50

All right.

AnnaRae Grabstein: 51:50

Yeah, wonderful Thanks.

Ben Larson: 51:53

All right, anna Rae, are we sending you off and back into the conference land? Are you going in more centered now?

AnnaRae Grabstein: 52:00

Yeah, with lots of intention and attention. I'm so ready for my day. How about you?

Ben Larson: 52:06

Excellent. Yeah, I'm heading up to Sacramento, actually for a few meetings before I get to jet off to vacation. Next week we have Tiffany Chin on the show. She is the manager of Death Row Records and keeping the Snoop Dogg legacy alive in cannabis, and it's going to be a really exciting conversation. Tune in for that, for everyone commenting on this conversation. Thank you for watching us live. If you want to comment on our shows, do join us live on LinkedIn. Otherwise, you catch us on our podcast on Apple Spotify, anywhere you might listen to it. Please rate and review us. They're rolling in ever so slowly, but it is helping, so please, please, leave us reviews. Thank you to our teams at Virtosa and Wolfmeyer. We love you guys and, of course, our producer, eric Rossetti. You're the man. Stay curious, we love you guys. And, of course, our producer, eric rosetti. You're the man. Stay curious, stay informed and, most importantly, keep your spirits high until next time. That's the show.