High Spirits: The Cannabis Business Podcast

#073 - Reaching Peak Performance in 2025 w/ Melanie Curtis, Performance Coach and World Record-Holding Pro Skydiver

AnnaRae Grabstein, Ben Larson, and Melanie Curtis Episode 73

🌿 𝐑𝐞𝐚𝐜𝐡𝐢𝐧𝐠 𝐏𝐞𝐚𝐤 𝐏𝐞𝐫𝐟𝐨𝐫𝐦𝐚𝐧𝐜𝐞 𝐢𝐧 𝟐𝟎𝟐𝟓: 𝐋𝐞𝐬𝐬𝐨𝐧𝐬 𝐟𝐫𝐨𝐦 𝐭𝐡𝐞 𝐄𝐝𝐠𝐞 𝐰𝐢𝐭𝐡 𝐌𝐞𝐥𝐚𝐧𝐢𝐞 𝐂𝐮𝐫𝐭𝐢𝐬 🌿

Dive into a thrilling new episode of 𝗛𝗶𝗴𝗵 𝗦𝗽𝗶𝗿𝗶𝘁𝘀 as we explore the intersection of peak performance in high-stakes environments with Melanie Curtis, a professional skydiver, world record holder, and acclaimed performance coach. Join us as we unravel the parallels between excelling in extreme sports and thriving in the volatile cannabis industry.

🚀 𝗔𝗯𝗼𝘂𝘁 𝗧𝗵𝗶𝘀 𝗘𝗽𝗶𝘀𝗼𝗱𝗲: Melanie Curtis brings her unique expertise from thousands of skydives and high-impact coaching sessions to discuss what it takes to achieve peak performance in any field. We'll discuss a wide range of topics from managing change, bravery in decision-making, and the art of leadership in uncertain times to practical advice on stress management, overcoming fear, and maintaining mental clarity amidst chaos.

💡 𝗪𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝗬𝗼𝘂'𝗹𝗹 𝗟𝗲𝗮𝗿𝗻:

𝑷𝒖𝒔𝒉𝒊𝒏𝒈 𝒕𝒉𝒆 𝑬𝒅𝒈𝒆𝒔: How pushing boundaries in skydiving translates to innovation in cannabis.

𝑬𝒏𝒕𝒓𝒆𝒑𝒓𝒆𝒏𝒆𝒖𝒓𝒔𝒉𝒊𝒑 𝒂𝒏𝒅 𝑩𝒓𝒂𝒗𝒆𝒓𝒚: The courage required to start new ventures and make tough decisions.

𝑯𝒊𝒈𝒉 𝑺𝒕𝒂𝒌𝒆𝒔 𝑴𝒂𝒏𝒂𝒈𝒆𝒎𝒆𝒏𝒕: Strategies for navigating volatility in cannabis.

𝑰𝒏𝒗𝒆𝒔𝒕𝒊𝒏𝒈 𝒊𝒏 𝑶𝒖𝒓𝒔𝒆𝒍𝒗𝒆𝒔: The importance of self-care and continuous learning for sustained high performance.

𝑻𝒆𝒂𝒎𝒘𝒐𝒓𝒌 𝒂𝒏𝒅 𝑻𝒓𝒖𝒔𝒕: Building and maintaining trust within teams to achieve common goals.

𝑶𝒗𝒆𝒓𝒄𝒐𝒎𝒊𝒏𝒈 𝑭𝒆𝒂𝒓: Techniques to conquer fear and harness it to fuel growth and success.

🌟 𝗠𝗲𝗲𝘁 𝗠𝗲𝗹𝗮𝗻𝗶𝗲 𝗖𝘂𝗿𝘁𝗶𝘀: Melanie's life mission goes beyond skydiving. She leverages her experiences to coach individuals and teams on achieving their highest potential, making her a sought-after speaker and consultant. With her vibrant energy and profound insights, Melanie inspires audiences to embrace challenges and transform their lives and workplaces.

 📚 Books mentioned in this episode:

-Man's Search For Meaning
-The Four Agreements
-The Power of Habit
-Atomic Habits
-No Bad Parts

--
High Spirits is brought to you by Vertosa and Wolf Meyer.

Your hosts are Ben Larson and AnnaRae Grabstein.

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Visit our website www.highspirits.media and listen to all of our past shows.

THANK YOU to our audience. Your engagement encourages us to keep bringing you these thought-provoking conversations.

Remember to always stay curious, stay informed, and most importantly, keep your spirits high.



AnnaRae Grabstein:

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Ben Larson:

Hey everybody, welcome to episode 73 of High Spirits. I'm Ben Larson and, as always, I'm joined today by Anna Rae Grabstein. It's Thursday, january 16th, 2025. And we've got another great show for you today, going a little off script and talking about how you can reach peak performance in 2025. We'll get to that in a little bit, but I'm going to check in with my co host and just see how things are going this week. And, ray, how are you today?

AnnaRae Grabstein:

how things are going this week. Anna Rae, how are you today? Thanks for asking and always caring. I am good. I am really excited for the show that we're having today and it's a little departure for us. As you mentioned talking about leadership and peak performance, when we started this podcast, we almost called it leading in cannabis, if you remember.

Ben Larson:

It's still on my calendar. Our prep calls are still on my calendars, Leading in Cannabis.

AnnaRae Grabstein:

Exactly Because leadership really matters to both of us, and now we get to focus on it today. Say yeah, how are you doing?

Ben Larson:

I'm good. I'm good. It's my birthday this weekend, so I'm excited about this. It's my 44th birthday, which my favorite number is 22. And so this is 22 times two, which means this year is going to be a big year for me. So double the fun. Double the fun. And yeah, I don't know, I'm feeling pretty great coming into this. You know, I've stuck with my workout routine, as many have seen on LinkedIn, and yeah, I don't know, I just feel like this is. Last year was a great year, but this is going to be the year and I'm really excited about having this conversation today because, yeah, I don't know, I'm pumped up for it. I want to give myself all the tools to really make it happen.

AnnaRae Grabstein:

Yeah Well, we usually do a bit of a news rundown. I think we don't have to go too deep today, but there is one thing that I think is worth mentioning before we jump in to our main conversation today. And that's yeah, it's the delay with the Schedule 3 hearings with the.

Ben Larson:

D Good. That was top of my list too.

AnnaRae Grabstein:

Yeah, you know, this touches basically all of our listeners that operate in the cannabis space and, um, some think it's good news. I feel like it's bad news, mostly because I'm impatient for progress and I want to see this happen. Uh, but basically what's happened is that the administrative law judge that was overseeing the hearings to determine the next step in the progression from Schedule 1 to Schedule 3 has delayed the hearings for 90 days or indefinitely. This is coming as a result of a pro-reform group led by Shane Pennington, who's a lawyer, a prominent lawyer in the space saying that the DEA was not actually acting in the best interest of policy change.

Ben Larson:

So he's trying to protect progress, but what it's doing is also slowing down progress, which is the double-edged sword here. Yeah, krishid Koja, who I mentioned previously representing NCIA and the lawyer who's really kind of engaged with this, has put out a pretty scathing op-ed about this. Actually, it's pretty cannabis controversial, but basically saying that this lawsuit is just proof that there's many people in the industry that haven't taken the time to understand the process and that this was how these hearings were intended to be structured, based on the DEA process, and so it indeed is just like an unnecessary delay in what was otherwise going to push the conversation forward unnecessary delay and what was otherwise going to push the conversation forward.

AnnaRae Grabstein:

Yeah, look, you know, in my work I have a few different retailers that are our clients and 280E is torture.

AnnaRae Grabstein:

280e is a tax penalty that is most difficult for retailers in the industry, but it's hard for everybody and it makes it so that all cannabis businesses aren't able to write off their general business expenses outside of cost of goods sold, and it is a penalty that can make it so that cannabis businesses just can't be profitable, which is actually a good segue into the conversation around leadership, because it's really one of the largest challenges that executives in the space have to face and to manage is how to build businesses that can sustain themselves within massive, massive tax penalties that other businesses outside of our space don't face, and it feels unfair and it feels unmanageable, and this has been the path to ending 280e. There are other paths and, uh, I believe that in my lifetime we will see a clear path, but I've got a lot of life ahead of me and I would like to live life with this penalty over. So, please, please, please, let's, let's have some progress here, folks.

Ben Larson:

Amen, yeah it's, it's unfortunate, but you know, here we are. This is kind of part and parcel with with the cannabis industry.

AnnaRae Grabstein:

All right. Well, anything else that you want to bring up on the news front before we bring on Melanie no, I'd rather get my, my emotions going in the opposite direction.

Ben Larson:

That sounds great.

AnnaRae Grabstein:

Let's do that. So I will cue this up. I am so excited to welcome Melanie Curtis. She's both a friend, but even more importantly, she's a professional skydiver, a world record holder and acclaimed life coach who has spent her career pushing the edges of what's possible, both in extreme sports and helping people thrive in high stakes environments. She's worked with individuals and teams on navigating change, overcoming fear and achieving peak performance. So, in the face of lots of uncertainty in cannabis, Melanie, we are so thrilled to bring you on and welcome you to our show today.

Melanie Curtis:

I love it. I'm super happy to be here. I'm fired up to be the departure from your normal. I hear a lot. The tone of genre busting is sort of stuff that I bring to the table sometimes because the skydiving thing is so weird and it's like how is that relatable? And yet you get into it. And it's like how is that relatable? And yet you get into it and it's like there's a lot that can be extracted from a universal perspective. But yeah, thanks so much for having me. I love it.

Ben Larson:

Amazing and not too weird. Just last week we had another skydiver on who holds a world record. But in the continuity of that, what is the world record that you hold for skydiving?

Melanie Curtis:

Continuity of that. What is the world record that you hold for skydiving? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was a member of the women's vertical world record team. So in 2022, basically, we had 100 women jumping out of five different aircraft, going 200 miles upside down head to earth, building a predetermined formation from 20,000 feet.

Melanie Curtis:

It is a ridiculous, mind-boggling thing and it cannot be achieved without individual peak performance and actually team peak performance as well. So it's like that phrase can be a little bit buzzwordy. You know what I mean. What is peak performance? But when you get into examples of it and what actually, I am infinitely honestly fascinated by the edges of human potential and entrepreneurially also, which is what I think is so alive about the cannabis space, is that clearly there's edge pushing here. Clearly you're like breaking new ground. There's, you know, you're in uncharted territory, like completely, and so uh, yeah, anyway, a lot, of, a lot of what we talk about in sort of my keynote speaking stuff I'm hopeful is going to be useful for your audience and so you do keynote speaking, and then you also have a life coaching practice.

AnnaRae Grabstein:

Talk a little bit about what that is.

Melanie Curtis:

Yeah, Well, my life coaching, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know God, life coaching. I've been doing that about 20 years and it is still some of the most fulfilling work that I do. And I talk about that because I love, deeply love people. You know how people are like, oh, what's your purpose? This and that, Bar none, forever. I have just loved people deeply.

Melanie Curtis:

I'm deeply fascinated by the human experience and so when I get to and I mean that when I get to be the person holding the space with deep curiosity, with complete non-judgment and really helping a person have a space where they can feel truly safe to explore what's in their way, or explore what they are actually interested in, what they're dreaming about I mean, I don't even really talk about dreaming that much, but it's again this idea of helping people expand, whether it's in the kind of conversational space that we share together, but in so doing we find goals, we find the pieces of what they're interested in, what's alive for them, what conflicts are at play, all this stuff like getting into the nitty gritty of people's lives and selves. I really feel like it's an honor to get to do that for people, and I'm a relentless teammate. I don't mess around and I love my people a lot.

Ben Larson:

Like I don't mess around and I love my people a lot.

Ben Larson:

Man, I love this.

Ben Larson:

And you know we're at the beginning of the year and we set all these expectations for the year, and so, as a CEO, I'm doing a lot of one-on-ones with the leaders in my team and, you know, trying to set the stage to get the most out of them and have them achieve what they want this year.

Ben Larson:

Have them achieve what they want this year, and you know, I introduced the idea of of having this big, hairy, audacious goal, a personal one for them, so that they're not necessarily setting a new year's resolution that they'll forget about in a month, but that they're actually driving towards something all year. But I love that idea of sitting down with someone and really getting them to open up and reflect on everything their, their, you know, their their idiosyncrasies, their, their strengths, their weaknesses and and building up from there and so kind of, in the vein of holding that space for people, what are some of the tactics or questions you you ask to really kind of set the stage for that inner work. I think that's the hardest part is getting someone to settle down and get centered and take their armor off.

Melanie Curtis:

Yeah for sure that a person in a hierarchically defined leadership role there will be undeniably a leadership power dynamic there, so that leader needs to acknowledge that as simply a truth. And so the expectation that a person might just open up to them because they've decided they're going to ask some soft skills questions and suddenly they're accessible, like that, that's built over time and through cultural action. This is one of the things that I talk about relative to the world record. It's sort of this interesting little side story. I wish I had photos to share, but you'll get the picture.

Melanie Curtis:

But the idea that we talk a lot in business about culture. You hear that all the time oh, what's your culture? What's your culture? I got a ping pong table, cool, awesome, we're so cool and hip. But really, when we talk about it relationally, it's like what does emotional safety, psychological safety, look like? So we talk a lot about culture, but we don send memes, funny memes or reels to your friends or loved ones or people in your life. Have you heard that term? That's a new term for me. Yeah, so it's basically this notion that I'm going to stay connected to. Oh, anna Rae, you're my friend. Oh, I saw this meme that made me think of you, or this is a funny thing and it relates to something we talked about.

Melanie Curtis:

It's a small way. I'm not suggesting necessarily that this is a full-on leadership tactic, but it is a way to maintain connection with people in our intimate sphere. And so, anyway, the world record it's sort of a flower shape and it's built with a bunch of different circles. Flower shape and it's built with a bunch of different circles, and my circle it's called a pod was E-Pod, like A, b, c, d, e, and E-Pod was the only pod of the entire record that was was the same. That never changed. There you go. That never changed from the first jump to the last jump. So there's something there like well, what was going on in EPOD such that we were able to maintain our peak performance through the end?

Melanie Curtis:

And I tell this story about my friend Kate, and she was a part of EPOD, and I talk about my own structure around, taking my fear and bringing it from here to here to here. By having structures in place and routines in place, I show up at the same time, I put my gear in the same place, I eat the same thing every day. All those things sort of help me feel a sense of control when I'm in an environment that is far out of my control. And we can relate this to business a lot, because business, there's people, there's the market, there's so many things that we cannot ever control. That it's like how do we get a sense for a baseline of what we can control but then how that helps us weather the stress that comes with what we can't? So anyway, kate and I, every day I would get a BLT because I just like them.

Ben Larson:

I love.

Melanie Curtis:

BLTs. I love BLTs, right, and so every day I would get my BLT and be like snap a dorky selfie and just text it to Kate, who I knew was kind of managing her own fears around the world record, like everyone on the entire team is, and I sent her a bunch of selfies and then by the fourth day she took a selfie with her BLT and sent it to me. It's a simple, stupid little story, but it shows the more intimacy of like I don't necessarily have to be freaking out, asking for coaching how did I do this? Or that. I can actually relax into a little bit of my light, funnier self because I know that I'm on point with what I need to have on point for the more intense stuff.

AnnaRae Grabstein:

Melanie, what you're touching on is bringing up so many bridges for me into the leadership work that Ben and I talk about on this show as it relates to the volatility. It's like you're highlighting the importance of these little moments of personal connection within the face of tremendous volatility, fear, uncertainty, and how those moments of personal connection what it sounds like can build like a stronger foundation for people to be able to get through like really hard times together.

Melanie Curtis:

Yeah, for sure.

AnnaRae Grabstein:

In. In our industry, there is just constant shifts. At the top of the hour, we are talking about issues going on with tax policy. The cannabis industry has been emerging for the past 10 years and it's a unique space because people have been consuming cannabis for thousands of years, and so there's this movement through business and laws and regulation, of taking this thing that's been in existence in human patterns and in their consciousness for a long time and then trying to put it into this legal framework and within that legal framework. Then there is capital that comes in and there's business opportunities and professional opportunities and there's a clash with culture.

AnnaRae Grabstein:

It's like all of these things are happening all at the same time, and we've got CEOs and founders that are trying to create certainty, because that is their job as a leader is to create some level of consistency for their teams, for their investors, for the markets that are supporting them, to believe that they're like carrying a plan forward. That's clear, but yet there's all this uncertainty all around, and so I guess you know if there's a question in all of that for you. It's like how do you take all of this uncertainty in the world and channel it into something to be able to like push boundaries and create opportunities around a plan Like how do you create a plan when everything is so crazy and wild?

Melanie Curtis:

Oh God, well, I mean, if I had the exact answer to that, I would certainly tell you. Well, I mean, if I had the exact answer to that, I would certainly tell you. But I think it's so important to talk about that because one thing I say a lot is certainty is very seductive, right, Because it feels good to be like I got it under control, like this is going to happen. I don't have to worry about all these 8,000 million things that are also going on that are potentially going to change our path. You know, so it's.

Melanie Curtis:

I've seen this with clients over the years where they'll declare, right, this, this sense of certainty about a thing, but really it's, it's fear, right? So if we get and we talk about fear and we talk about, okay, how can we actually improve in these spaces? We have to, I think, build skills around fear. So I briefly mentioned about, like, what are the systems, structures, routines that help me in a high stakes situation or an intense environment, bring my fear down? That's one thing, but also relative to things that we can't control genuinely, genuinely working on detachment from outcome, right, like that is a core emotional mindset skill that, without it, will just consistently get triggered when in the fate and again being triggered is normal. It's inherently human right. Feeling fear is inherently human.

Melanie Curtis:

To briefly go back to tie in what, ben, you were saying earlier uh, relative to the like ha ha ha, blt, emotional intimacy thing, the other kinds of communication that's going on, where that lightness is, there is also a richer space where people can share that they are afraid, where they can show up and ask for feedback on something they're not sure they're doing right, right Like that. That whole, like what does it look like to be emotionally safe, psychologically safe, or you know what I mean, like a truly accessible leader is that sort of space where people can admit that they don't know. They can admit that when they've sort of made mistakes, they can feel like they're not going to be fired or get in trouble if they have made a mistake. Right, and I want to say this too, because this can all sound really fluffy and lovely and warm. But the other side of that is that I'm not talking about not having super high integrity.

Melanie Curtis:

Right Like you have a business to run. There are hard decisions that need to be made, doing a world record. Sometimes people get cut and that stinks, but those are some of the hard decisions that have to be made in order for the ultimate success of the larger team and the bigger mission, and so that's important to think about too. But trust that if I am being in high integrity and being that sort of safe, emotionally, sort of gentle, as it were leader, but having real clear boundaries around what's okay, what's high integrity, what's not, then people will trust you because they'll know that they're going to get the feedback that they need from you and they're also going to be safe in when they share about what's going on for them.

Ben Larson:

Okay.

AnnaRae Grabstein:

Ben.

Ben Larson:

I want to do a quick follow-up here.

Melanie Curtis:

Yeah, I got it because you, you, I mean, I can riff. I didn't answer your question. Please tell me again.

AnnaRae Grabstein:

But I think that it's really important, because the idea of letting go of an outcome is very central to a lot of different like healing, recovery formulas, frameworks, right, but within the context of business, I think it can be complicated, because there's a strong need to have goals that can align people around outcomes, and so I'd love to hear your perspective on the idea of letting go of an outcome while still having a goal.

Melanie Curtis:

Yeah, absolutely so. It's super important distinction. I love that you're we're pulling on that thread a bit more because it's super important. When I say detachment from the outcome to people who have not heard it first, like in early professional development work, I almost always get that type of question back where it's like whoa well, how can I, you know? And understandably a person would be like how can I not care about the outcome? I do, you know, and so completely valid, totally validate that the distinction.

Melanie Curtis:

The thing to think about relative to that is it's short-term versus long, but it's also, I mean, gosh if we take it also to a spiritual perspective. That's a bit higher level meta piece of the conversation, but it is a part of it. But down in the more workable range of detachment from the outcome is it's this idea that we know that here's the outcome, here's where we are. We know there's a ton of stuff in here. What might derail us, the how we get to the outcome or whatever we are convicted to living into as a business or whatever. We have to be open to those shifts along the path. And the bigger picture is like obviously at some point there might be a question around what actually the goal is right. The goal may shift because new information comes in, because different opportunities emerge. But I mean I could go on and on about all this stuff because it really genuinely excites me if you can't tell on about all this stuff, because it really genuinely excites me if you can't tell.

Melanie Curtis:

But the last thing I'll say about the outcome and sort of how do we then actually do that emotionally, literally, with accountability is that we commit fully. There's so much power If we talk about peak performance and doing big things, having big goals, running a business that we don't know how to run committing fully that, no matter what you're going to do whatever you can to get to that thing, that is power. That comes only when you 100% I mean metaphoricallyically skydiving. You can't get back in the airplane when you let go. You're doing it. You know what I mean. It's a point of no return, and so the skill of accessing that sort of point of no return energy is something that people, I think, need to practice. But it's part of how you'll then get through the stuff that's unexpected, instead of being like, oh, it was supposed to happen just like this, and now it's not, and I'm upset and I'm freaking out and I'm spending all this energy on emotion that I could otherwise be spending on solutions and pivoting and all that good stuff.

Ben Larson:

Amazing. I think we're getting to the answer of my next question, but I want to dive let's see what I did there Dive a little bit deeper into this idea of like fear management Right, and I think, building confidence and navigating the outcomes that's a big piece of it and committing yourself and just going past the point of no return, just regurgitating everything you just said. But one of the tactics that people employ, or that I've encouraged people to employ, guilty is that when you're fearful of something, you kind of go through that exercise of what are the potential outcomes and how bad could it actually be and just go for it. But in your case, like you're jumping out of a plane. So I hate to say it but I think we all know the worst case scenario is that you hit the ground yeah.

Melanie Curtis:

Yeah, yeah, there's mortality, real mortality there, that helps with fear management.

Ben Larson:

So, like some of the other tactics besides that, I don't think that helps with fear management.

Melanie Curtis:

So like, what are right? But back in the day, if I was rejected from the group and I was alone, the saber-toothed tigers are going to eat me and I'm going to die. So there's this sense of real survival connected to almost all fears. If we dig deep enough, if we ask why okay cool, why, okay cool, why does that matter? Okay cool, why does that matter? Dig, dig, dig down on fears, you'll usually come to some really core base thing. Right, and so that's an exercise I would highly recommend for most people. But I think one thing that's important to start with is how do you even know if you're afraid? I know that might sound like a weird question, but the starting point, I think, is really cultivating self-awareness, and I mean that actionably. I mean when I feel triggered. What happens in my body? Does my throat close? Does my chest tighten? Does my face get hot and red? Do I start to get irritable? Do I feel emotionally fragile like I want to cry? Do I? Do I feel emotionally fragile like I want to cry? Do I whatever? Snap at people? What emerges in me? Do I get quiet and retreat from conversation or contribution? Those things are all cues that if we actually self-reflect and look, we'll start to see what happens for us. You know what I mean. And then with that we can start to.

Melanie Curtis:

I don't know if you guys know Viktor Frankl's book Man's Search for Meaning, but he talks a lot about the or he this. One of the main premises in his teachings is this idea that between stimulus and response there is a space, right? So like stimulus meaning something scares me. My response, I take some action relative to that fear, if we can. You know, like open up that oh, there's a stimulus, there's a fear. I know and I'm aware that I'm afraid and I'm now becoming the observer of myself in that space there we can decide. So I don't have to let fear have me snap at Anna Rae because I'm having a stressful day with my family or something right. It could be totally unrelated to her right. So those skills I think are crucial to develop, in addition to the proactive things of how do I lower the potentiality that I'm going to be triggered by fear into a place where I'm going to do something I maybe regret?

AnnaRae Grabstein:

So what I hear you doing is really leaning into these key points based on some of the questions we're asking you, like fear, I think, high level. It's all touching on this big picture about how we invest in ourselves as leaders and all of these kind of potential gems that come out of that. In particular, I think burnout is really common in cannabis, but really common professionally for all leaders that are doing hard work pretty consistently, and you've done a lot of work in your career about educating people about how to invest in themselves in order to have peak performance, in order to live the life that they want. I'd love to just kind of open it up in terms of this concept of investing in ourselves. What does that mean? Like, where does someone start?

Melanie Curtis:

I love that so much. Thank you for even asking that, because I think you're right that isn't talked about that much, even though it's just what's so funny to me funny to me from the life coaching perspective. I started life coaching in 2008 and, oh my God, it was not cool back then. You know like I mean. Even the word light term life coach now is a bit like cringe, but I I've I very much deeply believe in it as a modality of support, and that's something that is so crucial.

Melanie Curtis:

To talk about is like we are not meant to do life alone. You know what I mean. And especially if we are running businesses or doing really hard things, we are choosing, self-selecting, choosing into these being triggered. We are choosing into areas where we don't really know what we're doing. We're choosing into maybe having people around us and we're like, whoa, I'm suddenly a manager, I'm suddenly a CEO or I'm suddenly whatever, and it really there's so much more to that type of stuff than just like a title, right? What does being a CEO or a founder take? You know what I mean. How do you want to go to sleep at night and feel like you've done a good job for both yourself and people around you. What are your core values? Having spaces and people to help you explore these things are are so useful. You know what I mean.

Melanie Curtis:

Again, I'm not necessarily saying, hey, coach, hire me. I mean sure, but it's more about the concept of, like, find people so that you can build a support team. Like I talk about people having a therapist. Maybe they have a coach, maybe they have a best friend who's very capable, maybe they have a business partner who's very capable. Maybe they have a business partner who's very capable, right? So it depends. Maybe they're a part of a mastermind group or a community that has a lot of resources and smart people in it. So it depends what your support team looks like. But not having one is the wrong move. Like, cultivating a support team, I think, is critical.

Ben Larson:

I love that we talk about support teams pretty frequently, like I've immersed myself. In fact, yesterday I had my day long Vistage meeting. It was great.

AnnaRae Grabstein:

Nice.

Ben Larson:

Not to turn this into my own personal therapy session, but you're here and I have a mic, so a lot of like a type leaders. You know they like to surround themselves with other, a type leaders, thus mastermind groups and what have you. But how do you create that acceptance, or at least yeah, like I don't know, I find myself wanting to see that in everyone that is around me.

Ben Larson:

And that's healthy in some aspects, because you are the sum of the five people that you hang out with the most. But some of those people that I hang out with the most is my family, and I could become insufferable if I'm pressing on them all the time to be exactly like me. Yep, I can do a little bit more in my company because that, you know, might be my expectation, but also it's helpful to not have that within every person in the company, and so I just I find myself struggling with that a lot.

Melanie Curtis:

Yeah, you know it's, I get it first of all, totally get it. I am a very hyper growth mind. Anna Ray knows I'm super growth minded. I am constantly enlivened by the edge and all this stuff. But really I love the living that takes place when I'm growing, when I'm trying to better myself, and I care a great deal about doing that in the presence. When I'm trying to better myself and I care a great deal about doing that in the presence of people I love and all this stuff. Anyway, I say that just to you're not alone.

Melanie Curtis:

One thing I would invite people into, if that's their experience, is looking at the belief around, actually considering diversity of voices and life experiences. For example, the Four Agreements. One of the four agreements, if you've read that book, is something I'm going to not say it exactly how it's written in the book, but it's something like not everybody experiences the world like you do. You know what I mean. So like, really, if we really want to be an empathetic leader that ends up as a safe, truly safe, nonjudgmental space, we really must cultivate skills of nonjudgmentally viewing other folks and cultivate the skill and this is a kind of core competency as a coach which I think all leaders should sort of be coaches in a way is really cultivate that skill of seeing the potential and positive contribution of the people around us.

Melanie Curtis:

You know what I mean, because it's very easy to get into that judgmental space of like, oh, why aren't they doing this or why aren't they doing that, and instead maybe start to reflect on, well, what are person is not doing in a workplace? That's different, that's a whole. How do we hold people accountable? How do we challenge them to rise to what the role requires, that type of stuff or what the team culture is built on? Right, and not everyone is going to make the cut there either. Right, some people are not a fit for our team. I'm not saying this necessarily about your family, but but I'm saying it more about, you know, the cultivation of nonjudgment and the recognition of what people actually bring to the table as a diverse person. You know what I mean, and I say diverse with a very broad stroke there, meaning not you, right, not exactly how you would do it.

AnnaRae Grabstein:

Yeah, and come on, ben, I'm just going to call you out Red flags here, man.

Ben Larson:

Yeah, I've never claimed not to have them.

AnnaRae Grabstein:

But you know, I think that what I'm hearing Melanie say and is sort of an undertone and looking at overcoming fear, uncertainty and taking calculated risks. As leaders, we have a responsibility to keep trying harder, to keep doing hard things to better ourselves. First, by whether it's opening our mind to a diverse range of experiences of other people's lives or to new concepts or ideas that someone might have that aren't our own, that are going to be unlocks for us, that that's going to help us to really kick 2025's butt right, and that's exciting for me and I'm feeling inspired as we're talking about this.

Melanie Curtis:

I want to say one more thing about this that I think will potentially help. Another thing that I talk about is this idea of discomfort as the door. So, again, talking about framing peak performance Okay, yeah, fear, right, you're on the edge, you're feeling fear. Human trigger Okay, master a bunch of skills around fear and you're going to be able to go further than you would have if fear were to stop you. Cool, all that, check done, talked about it.

Melanie Curtis:

There's plenty more to talk about, but the next thing I want to talk about is this notion that discomfort. It really is something to consider, right? So, in this example of what you shared, ben, about, you're in this leadership position, or you're this type A person. You're constantly surrounded by type A people. You maybe have this built-in comfort zone, familiarity with those types of folks, because that's where you feel good and live and all this stuff and, again, myself too. And so the discomfort there is like okay, looking at the discomfort there is like okay, like looking at the discomfort that you experience in the presence of the other folks that are causing you the rub, in whatever scenario it might be and again, it may be you, but any leader. I really this is really a universal thing. You're just the example because you're literally here, but you know what I mean. That sense, because discomfort is not always only fear, right, it's also coming up against our current existing habits, right.

Melanie Curtis:

And I cannot recommend more highly for people to read the book the Power of Habit by Charles Duhigg. It's, I think, a game changer. I think it's a crucial critical piece of just education. A lot of people also talk about the book Atomic Habits written by James Clear, also an excellent book, I think in my experience. Read Charles first, the Power of Habit first, then read Atomic Habits. They build on each other, but the power of habit is, I think, the baseline, fundamental understanding. So discomfort is present when we are pushing past what we are habitually already conditioned to do, whether that is how we think, whether that is us eating a certain thing.

Melanie Curtis:

I always kind of share this example where I would go to New York City. I live in New Jersey, I go to New York City on the train and I had these two collapsed habits of when I would go to the city. Every time I would come home I would get this lemon poppy seed muffin, and it was just a collapsed habit. And this is again a little food thing. I'm like I don't know I'm using food details today, but I had to recognize that that was a habit that I had and one that wasn't serving me and I had to start to detangle them.

Melanie Curtis:

So the discomfort came and the next time I went to the city now with this new awareness, this new commitment, to be like oh, I got to stop eating those muffins. They make me feel bad, I feel brain fog the next day, yada, yada, yada, the moment when I normally get that muffin not so easy, right. So it's like I had to be prepared for that. So, thinking about ways both learning from what we feel and then preparing ourselves in such a way that when we meet that moment again, that discomfort again that comes from whatever habit we're trying to shift or whatever new habit we're trying to build, that stuff is super, super important. But it's also really exciting because it lets us, it really gives us the way to get to whatever next level we're trying to get to.

Ben Larson:

Yeah, I love talking about uncomfortableness. It's because I mean working in startups especially. It's like being comfortable in the uncomfortable is really your key to success and surviving. Actually it's surviving the stress, right.

Ben Larson:

And and then just another quote that I often like hear or or repeat uh, is is just this concept of if you're not uncomfortable, you're not growing yeah and so I do like this idea of taking that uncomfortable and putting it over here instead of like the growth, like where am I uncomfortable with certain people that I'm interacting with and and exploring a little bit?

Melanie Curtis:

So I really appreciate that be hard to really look at where we feel discomfort. Some of it we will not want to see it. So that's, if I really am like, okay, you really want to get to the true like this, we have to be willing to go to those places that we have been historically unwilling to go inside ourselves. Otherwise, that stuff that is unseen to us will always hold us back.

AnnaRae Grabstein:

The idea of being held back by the places that we've been and where we came from. The flip side of that is also about how we show up today and Ben brought up and seeded a little bit about his morning routine earlier in the show and he shared about it. And you talked about relentless commitment. We talked about breaking habits.

AnnaRae Grabstein:

There's this concept about the whole person and how these things that happened before affect us in our day-to-day life now, but also as leaders, sometimes we feel that we're identified by the work and I think that there's a disconnect by all the other pieces of ourselves, and a big part of that and peak performance that you talk about is the commitment to the other parts of ourselves. As leaders, what we're doing physically to keep our bodies at peak performance, which can lead to our minds being at peak performance, which can then lead to ourselves being able to show up, and it's no problem. We aren't scared of uncomfortability with a team member because we just pushed our body to some crazy limits and it's all of a sudden, it just all kind of comes from there, and I'm curious of what some of your routines are that are the ways that you continue to push your body and yourself, so that your work isn't so scary.

Melanie Curtis:

Yeah, thank you. I love that question. I want to first double tap on the parts work. If people have not heard of Richard Schwartz, he developed a therapeutic modality called internal family systems. I would highly recommend Googling it, checking it out. It's sort of also known as parts work but, it can be really useful.

Ben Larson:

There's a book. No Bad Parts? I think no Bad Parts. Yep, yep.

Melanie Curtis:

Totally recommend that book as well. Yeah, for sure. There's workbooks and stuff and there are definitely therapists out there that are trained in this modality that can hold a meditative space for a parts work. Meditation, it's all. It's really really good stuff If it's something that's you're kind of called toward.

Melanie Curtis:

But, anna Rae, to answer your question, the other thing I want to touch on quickly is is the what's the word I want to say like magnetic? It's more like an inertia of identity, right? So people have known me a gazillion years as a pro skydiver and I am a pro skydiver. I totally am. But the more deeper nuanced thing with that, for me it's a good example of who am I, if I let go of being a pro skydiver, doing this work right, and so I still very much identify as a pro skydiver. But how that looks in my world now is vastly changed. I skydive much, much less and I do very specific skydiving work now that is connected to amplifying voices and messages that matter, using the sort of superpower of skydiving to capture attention and attaching it to sort of women and activist efforts that I care about. So that I say that just because it was. It's been a long time for me to be like, oh my God, well, what if I? It's been a long time for me to be like, oh my God, well, what if I? When I first started coaching, will anybody even be interested in me as a coach? Am I going to fail because they don't like me as a focus? It's just wonderful work. But, like the keynote speaking, why I touch on that is that that is in large part how my professional life and my connection to contribution and skydiving has evolved right, has matured. It's like I know that I can make a great deal of difference for my sport, my community, by doing it this way, by talking about it being a model of leadership outside of the skydiving community in the way that I am, by contributing, by telling stories, and maybe some people go and try skydiving, maybe a lot of people don't, that doesn't really matter. But the point is is that evolves? But the point is is that evolves? So to get to your actual question about what are my routines, it's connected to the keynote speaking, which is why I told all that other stuff. Intuitively, I knew so.

Melanie Curtis:

Last year I deployed Melanie Curtis type A like badass you know what? Because that version of me, I love her, I love that version of me. She's awesome and she's very, very powerful. So when I deploy her and she's held very accountable, I can get a ton done. I ended 2024 really burned out, and so what do I do with that? Well, I was like well, I have a ton of skills in my toolbox. I just need to get back to them.

Melanie Curtis:

So I'm a person who has a word for the year, and my word for this year is consistency, but specifically relative to my meditation, to exercise and to healthy eating. None of this is new. Healthy eating None of this is new. It's like boring, almost that. That's my answer, right, but the truth is, is that that consistency in meditation and that consistency, that commitment to it, is what I believe intuitively is connected to my success as a keynote speaker? Right, like to really really grow in that lane, which is what I'm, what I want. So that, plus prospecting for an hour a day like that type of routine, I think, is also really important things that I haven't done in the past but I'm really digging into now.

Ben Larson:

This, this idea of creating and identifying the persona that you are choosing to be in a given situation or a given day or a given year, uh, so powerful. And I say that as someone who grew up identifying as an introvert. And there's a lot of people that look at me and like, bullshit you're, you're a ceo, you do public speaking, you host a podcast like there's no way you're an introvert. And you know, I love that. Like creating the, that routine, those habits in the morning and then giving yourself the opportunity to enter the day, be like who do I need to be today?

Ben Larson:

And if you're going on stage or talking to your team, I remember when we were, um, when we're first getting into the pandemic, and you, like, you know, I had my routine in the morning I'd shower, I'd do my hair, I'd put on a collared shirt and I'd go into my room and stand in front of my computer for 10 hours and it even got to the point where I put it right above my camera and it just said showtime. And I can't remember where I got this advice from, but it was just like this reminder that it's like oh yeah, I have to, I have to be on for my team in this particular case and it just it applies to so many things when you're public speaking is like going on. It's like who's this audience? What did they expect me to be? And I'm going to be that person and making it a choice. I just love that.

Ben Larson:

And Melanie like and I know that fear probably no longer exists, but I imagine you being an amazing coach, uh, and that everyone thinks that, because I feel like I could talk to you forever. Um, anna Rae, do you have any last questions for Melanie? I know we're getting close to the top of the hour here.

AnnaRae Grabstein:

You know, I think that I want our listeners to know how they can stay connected to you and your work, Melanie. So what's the best? Way for people to find you and talk exists.

Melanie Curtis:

I'm like it still exists. I'm just like committed to being as masterful as I can be with the skill set around it so I can do what I want to do with this one precious life, as it were. But yeah, I would love to connect with anybody who felt inspired and motivated or whatever drawn to what I've been sharing about my name, melanie Curtis, my website, melaniecurtiscom, instagram. I'm on Instagram a lot, linkedin, for sure. Connect with me here, but MelanieCurtis11 on Instagram and, yeah, please reach out.

AnnaRae Grabstein:

Awesome. Well, this has been such an inspiration. Ben and I are both really committed to showing up as whole people as we navigate the complexities of this wild industry that we work in, and we are excited to be encouraging more conversations like this, because I think it's needed. So, melanie, we would love for you to give our listeners a last call as a final message before we say goodbye.

Melanie Curtis:

I this is probably going to sound weird, but I love you. I mean it sounds so weird, but I mean there's like when we really connect to like we're together in this, like we're really together in this. You know, even people I don't know I feel like I have love for. So I try to really rest in that and all that, even when I'm showing up, ben, like you said, even when I'm on, when I'm trying to embody all that energy, it's still I really try to be really rooted in love, and so I would invite people to really consider that in the roles that they, that they hold and the ways that they lead.

Ben Larson:

Wow, I love that and we love you too. Thank you so much for being here and sharing this hour with us, and what a great departure from from our our typical show. So, melanie, I can't wait until the next time we get to catch up. I'll certainly be reaching out to you personally. Got some work to do.

Melanie Curtis:

Thank you both so much.

Ben Larson:

All right, bye, anna Rae. Thank you for queuing that up. That was incredible.

AnnaRae Grabstein:

Don't. I have cool friends.

Ben Larson:

You do have cool friends.

Ben Larson:

I mean not to sound surprised, but you know, and what do you think folks? A little bit of a departure, like I said, from our typical show. But if you liked it, we'll do more. I'm sure Anna Rae has more cool friends beyond Melanie. Don't forget to like, subscribe, share, do all the things Huge. Thank you to our audience for continuing to grow and engage with us. We're having so much fun. We're going to be live in miami at canadatacon at the beginning of february, so if you're planning on going, make sure you keep an eye out for us. We'll be very engaged with the show. A huge shout out and thank you to the team. Ian and Delta Emerald Really love it, really excited to go there. And, yeah, all I can say is thank you to our producer, eric Rossetti, and our teams at Vertosa and Wolfmeyer and, of course, the team at KitPrint for supporting this show. Until next time, stay curious, stay informed and keep your spirits high. That's the show.

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