Speaker 1: 0:05

Hey everybody, welcome to episode 66 of High Spirits. I'm Ben Larson and, as always, I'm joined today by Anna Rae Grabstein. It's Thursday, october 31st 2024. Happy Halloween. Today we're going to be diving into the world of Juana Brands, north America's largest edibles brand. We have Joe Hodes, the recently appointed president, joining us. It's going to be exciting to talk about taking over the world with edibles. But before we get there, anna Rae, happy, happy Halloween Trick or treat. Neither of us are dressed up. What's going on?

Speaker 2: 0:46

um, I had an incredible halloween event on saturday where I did dress up as an amanita muscaria mushroom, um, which was really fun. My son, um, was a werewolf not the scary kind, the super cute seven-year-old kind. And, um, yeah, I will be going trick-or-treating in downtown petaluma tonight, or I'll be chaperoning some seven-year-olds, uh, trick-or-treating tonight. But today it's all about work. How about you?

Speaker 1: 1:18

well, I was gonna yeah, I was actually gonna say after saying that we didn't dress up, we're both actually remarkably professional looking today, so maybe we did dress up as actual ceos this time, not just west coast, uh, lackeys yeah, I've got a blazer on which is both, you know, casual and cool yeah, I don't. I don't know what this is. This is a mock turtleneck. What, what do you call this? Uh?

Speaker 2: 1:40

yeah, you're in a mock turtleneck, are you? Will you trick-or-treating tonight?

Speaker 1: 1:45

uh, we are, yeah, that the real costumes would come out. I'll post a picture for everyone to see. Uh, it's going to be ridiculous. We got these. Uh, the wavy guy that you'll see like attracting attention at car washes and in car lots. So we have four of those, so we'll'll be running around looking like wavy guys.

Speaker 2: 2:04

Well, speaking of Halloween, I will give a shout out to Christy Palmer from Kiva, who, two years in a row, have put out some really smart content around, just reminding everyone about how responsible regulated cannabis companies are committed to being around Halloween and trying to disperse some of the bad press that companies have gotten in the past about fears of kids getting medicated candy and just reminding parents to look out for kids, but also reminding consumers how much we all do in cannabis to ensure product safety and child resistant packaging and all kinds of things. And it's just happy to see it and happy to see companies leading and reminding consumers in the world that we are committed to being responsible participants and that it just generally doesn't happen.

Speaker 1: 3:03

That happened and that it just generally doesn't happen. That happened. Yeah, we were joking around with some parents this weekend Not seriously joking around, but it was like we would be grateful if they gave all the kids some weed and everyone just chilled out, because it is pandemonium out there. We go out to, you know the residential neighborhoods and you know there's just kids running everywhere. It gets dark. Our anxiety goes up because it's like where'd my kid go? Which reminds me I have to get the batteries for the air tags. It's my hack for keeping it.

Speaker 2: 3:48

Well, bringing it back to cannabis, we have a lot going on in the next week for the industry. I think everybody is paying attention to what is happening with the election, and there's a lot more than just the president at stake in this election. We've got a number of states that have different medical or adult use initiatives that are going to the ballot, obviously with the biggest one being Florida, but a lot of other smaller states are looking at cannabis too, and it could be a real bellwether for what the next couple years of growth will look like for brands and companies that are participating. So I'm excited.

Speaker 1: 4:23

Well then, we had the DEA hearing hot on its heels, so it's going to be a fun Q4 for the cannabis industry.

Speaker 2: 4:31

Yeah, the DEA hearing. Yesterday there started to be some announcements about invitations for testimony that will be taking place in the December 2nd hearing, and I texted you last night. I saw that Aaron Smith, the executive director at NCIA, is on that testimony list. Aaron Smith, this is a call out. I hope you're going to be representing the industry in a way that would make us all proud. So if you want, you can give me a call and I'm happy to tell you what I think needs to be said.

Speaker 1: 5:11

We may or may not have a board meeting very shortly after this recording.

Speaker 2: 5:16

Yeah, it's a big deal. I hope that anyone that is testifying at that hearing takes it very seriously about the stakes that are ahead. We need to get this across the board. This is no joking matter.

Speaker 1: 5:27

Yeah, absolutely All right. Well, should we jump in?

Speaker 2: 5:31

Let's jump in. Today, our guest is Joe Hodes, a leader with an impressive background in strategic marketing and brand development across cannabis and CPG. Earlier this year, joe transitioned from CMO to president of Juana Brands, following the long and storied leadership of the founder, nancy Whiteman. He's been at the forefront of some major changes that we'll be discussing, including Juana's new hemp marketplace, launching in hemp and, just overall, leading the US and Canadian markets for the company. So, joe, welcome to the show. Thanks for being here, thank you guys, so much for having me.

Speaker 3: 6:10

I was listening to some of that dialogue up front there. That was interesting stuff. I want to jump into some of that and talk about it.

Speaker 1: 6:17

Well, let's jump in. Well, the whole.

Speaker 3: 6:19

Halloween thing actually reminded me way back in, like I don't know 2014, maybe. Uh, ricardo bacca was uh at the cannabis at the time and we did this whole piece about that very issue. That this, this fallacy that people are handing out edibles and, like you know, there's a big uproar in colorado because it was still legalization was still relatively new at that point and, uh, we just, you know we scratch our head, but that that I remember that that piece being very um direct and saying like that is an absolute fallacy. First of all, people don't want to hand out $20 products.

Speaker 1: 6:51

They're expensive. There's no money, there's economic benefits there.

Speaker 2: 6:56

They're edible, keep them for yourself, even with my friends, I'm like okay friends.

Speaker 3: 7:06

I'm like, uh, no, it's uh, it's funny that we have to continue to battle. That I mean not funny. Actually it's not funny at all, but it's ridiculous, I guess. But yeah, but but good on Christie and Kiva for doing that Well.

Speaker 2: 7:13

So, joe, you've had quite the journey at Juana. Uh, you have transitioned to president, and I would love to just hear from you what are some of the most exciting aspects of leading Juana in this new era? What's up front for you, you know?

Speaker 3: 7:29

lots going on right.

Speaker 3: 7:30

Cannabis is I was saying this to someone earlier today on the one hand it can be a real grind and on the other hand, it can be inspirational and you know an experience that you would get nowhere else, and so you know that's kind of the day-to-day you would get nowhere else, and so you know that's kind of the day-to-day. In terms of Guana itself, it's a really interesting time because you know we're seeing so much price compression and struggle on the regulated side. Now we have our whole hemp business that we just launched. That is really exciting, really interesting lots going on there. But it also creates its own level of friction with the, I guess the fact that the regulated side and the hemp side often don't see eye to eye. We're trying to bridge some of that gap actually in doing what we're doing.

Speaker 3: 8:13

But on top of that, the reason that Nancy asked me to step into this role is familiarity with the brand and the culture of Lana. So my big focus on what kind of you know when someone says we'll keep you up at night it brand and the culture of Juana. So my big focus on what kind of you know when someone says we'll keep you up at night, it's maintaining the culture that we have here during, you know, tumultuous times, during periods of growth and the challenges that we have ahead of us as an industry, keeping a really tight focus on who Juana is as a brand and what our culture is, and you know that's kind of been the foundation of our success. So that's, that's a big part of what I have inherited and I'm, you know, both excited and also sometimes intimidated by it.

Speaker 1: 8:53

You know it's. One has always had this like really interesting place in my brain as a brand, you know it's. You know, in the early days I thought of it as kind of like a more sophisticated edible product. It had a little bit more of a medical appeal than, say, like you know, some of the other brands in the market cannabis, and I'm curious as to how you feel juana's movement into hemp, what that signals for the conversation.

Speaker 1: 9:31

You know there's been a couple brands and a couple ceos that we've had on, like christy from, from kiva, uh, where you know that's like kiva for me was like a very heavily focused on the on the regulated california market and maybe that's just because I'm here in california. You know juana's based in colorado, maybe it's similar there, but you guys kind of bridging into it's like. For me it's like this opportunity to just talk about like hemp is cannabis and like this is just another access point and these are similar products and I don't know, I I'm very appreciative, appreciative of your brand, kind of like jumping in and it just being another data point in the minds of the consumer, but having a little bit of a different kind of angle than other brands that have made the jump you know we want to.

Speaker 3: 10:21

We talk about this a lot. You know that we are pretty mission driven, so our mission being to enhance people's lives, and we do that through the products that we create and deliver. We do that through the community efforts that we participate in and we do that by trying to be the best environmental stewards that we can be. Hemp, in our mind, is an extension of that mission and that focus. Right, because we can now reach consumers in markets that we couldn't previously reach. So I'm talking about the non-regulated markets, which is really where a lot of our focus is with our hemp division. But on top of that and I might get into cranky old man mode in just a second, because I think part of what I'm about to say is tied to the fact that I think as a regulated industry no-transcript one talked about growing the pie right, but we're not creating an environment that really allows us to do that, that makes cannabis accessible to people that might otherwise not access it, and so on the hemp side, some of that gets removed. Now I will tell you simultaneously I see some of what is going on in hemp and doesn't thrill me either. So I've spent some time in Texas recently, some other markets where I think the lack of regulation, the dosages, the variety of different cannabinoids some of which I'd never even heard of, to be honest, which is weird given I've been in this industry for 12 years is an issue.

Speaker 3: 12:10

But where I'm going with all this is to say we've always focused on innovation. We've always focused on creating products that are going to benefit people and sometimes that telegraphs as medical, which we don't really differentiate between medical or recreational. People use cannabis for a variety of different reasons. But we have our Optimals line that was really created to say, you know, sleep, pain, anxiety, energy. Those are all really targeted, effects-based products, use, case-specific products that are meant to enhance people's lives that way. Then we have our full line of Quick and our longer harder-hitting Classic line line of quick and our longer harder hitting classic line, all of which can kind of get put underneath this umbrella. That one is a little more medical focused, but really I translate that as saying we're a little more intentional in our design of our products, in the way that we formulate our products, and I think with hemp that allows us to communicate that maybe more effectively, in some cases directly to the consumer via our shopwandererscom website.

Speaker 1: 13:07

Yeah, I love that. No, I mean, this seems to be a big step, and we'll talk about beverages in a minute. That's one of my favorite topics, you know, as a business owner. You know we always talk about focus and like really making sure that we're not overextending ourselves, and launching a marketplace is a big step. So I'm sure there was a lot of consideration into what drove this decision. Can you talk about that a little bit Like why did you feel the need to launch your own marketplace?

Speaker 3: 13:43

Yeah, did you feel the need to launch your own marketplace? Yeah, so I mean so what you're scrolling through now in the marketplace? The reason we did a marketplace is we looked, as we were thinking about hemp, and we knew that, you know, I would say two years ago, this wasn't necessarily on our radar or something that we wanted to do, but as we saw more and more companies engaging in it, as we saw the opportunity and also the you know, sometimes, the impact on the regulated side, we felt like it was, you know, something that we had to do and something that gave us a new opportunity to speak to those consumers that we're not currently reaching in the regulated markets. All that being said, we also recognize that you had one of two different models at the time, two different models at the time. One was you had single brand or single product in some cases, companies that set up a website and were selling direct to consumer, with not a whole lot of variety, certainly a lack of information, but potentially, you know, decent products.

Speaker 3: 14:36

The other side, you also had companies that were selling direct to consumer products with a complete lack of information, dosing, various cannabinoids, just a real irresponsibility, in my opinion, for the hemp market. And so we were looking at all of this and saying, well, how can we step in, leverage who we are and what we do from an education standpoint, from an integrity standpoint, and bring that to the space from an integrity standpoint and bring that to the space? And so we thought is why not help curate a platform for brands and products that companies that we know, companies that we believe are producing responsibly, and take some of the guesswork out of it for consumers who may find themselves looking at a hemp derived product and really have no idea whether to trust it. You know where it's made, how it's made, what the effects might be, and so taking some of that guesswork out and creating a marketplace versus just a narrowly focused want-to-brand site really was kind of in line with our mission of bringing education and bringing the right products to the right people at the right time.

Speaker 2: 15:37

Joe, talking about this evolution that you've been through bringing the hemp products to market, I think is really relevant, in that Ben and I often talk with CEOs at different phases of their development as cannabis operators that medical and adult use think that there have been a lot of companies that, out of the gate, had a lot of problems with hemp because it was competitive to them with less regulation.

Speaker 2: 16:14

There's been a whole debate about the fairness of having the two products compete in the market and then we're starting to see folks that become more open-minded and I've been seeing this in some ways of just getting out of denial, of like accepting and realizing what's right in front and that there is this opportunity, and then instead of fighting up against it, maybe we should consider it and think about how we might participate in it instead of instead of fighting back against it.

Speaker 2: 16:41

And there there clearly must have been some some of that in in either your mind or in kind of the the broader consciousness in Juana, from a strategic perspective, absolutely yeah. I want to specifically kind of dive in on is. Within that context, I've seen some cannabis companies that have chosen to get into hemp be very specific about the markets that they'll bring hemp products to market in and having them not be competitive with their cannabis markets, like, okay, maybe we're in 10 regulated cannabis markets, we'll sell hemp and all the others, but we don't want to cannibalize the products. But what I heard you say earlier, which I think is spot on, is that the consumers are different, and so I want to hear your perspective on the way that you're thinking about go-to-market and thinking about competition with your existing product lines or maybe there isn't and just talk me through some of your thinking on that stuff, and just talk me through some of your thinking on that stuff.

Speaker 3: 17:44

Great question, and it's one that I've had a number of conversations with our partners around the country about, and our focus was never to be competitive with them, and so there's a couple of ways that I break that down.

Speaker 3: 17:56

So one is looking at the products that we have on the website. So I'll give you the best example, and very relevant for Ben here is beverages. So I'll give you the best example and very relevant for Ben here is beverages. You know we don't sell beverages in the regulated market because beverages in the regulated market just have never really taken off. I mean, my first entrance into the industry with Dixie, I learned all about beverages and the good, the bad, the ugly of that, and I know that beverages are just not a huge category for a myriad of reasons that we don't have to go into. But so selling beverages was an opportunity to create a differentiated product that we know isn't going to be a big seller in the dispensary. But two, we've also focused on offering products that are going to be non-competitive from a dosing standpoint and also from a pricing standpoint.

Speaker 3: 18:40

So there's kind of that piece of it. But then we've also looked at the various markets and said, okay, you know what, we're not going to sell X, y or Z product in certain markets because we don't want to be competitive with our existing channel in that market. And then on top of all of that, we look at the totality of what we're doing with the website versus, let's say, what the totality of sales would be in a given market versus, let's say, what the totality of sales would be in a given market. And it's de minimis, right. So the impact on a daily basis to any of our partners is, if at all, is minimal. You're talking about, from a given state, let's say I don't know 20 orders in a month out of thousands of orders that are going through some of our partners in our dispensary. So it is really pretty de minimis.

Speaker 3: 19:28

The bigger opportunity for us is to focus on markets where we don't currently have any presence. So you know, whether we're talking about a Texas or a Georgia or these markets that have not been previously accessible by us. Those are the opportunity markets for us to really dig in and say how can we create an opportunity for the brand and for the products to live where they previously. A year ago, that wasn't even a thought for us. So I think that's the strategy.

Speaker 3: 19:55

Now, as far as it relates to the decision-making process that we used, I really what you said earlier really resonates with me in terms of that.

Speaker 3: 20:06

You know you can try and fight against it or you can figure out how to play within it, and I have many times said it's not unlike digital music, for example, where you had record companies and bands fighting against it.

Speaker 3: 20:19

But the consumer will is strong, right, and so it's going to create those opportunities, whether or not we want to fight against it.

Speaker 3: 20:27

And I think it's a real challenge to try and not allow it to happen, because it's going to happen, regardless whether you participate or not. Now what I will say and then I'll stop talking because I realize I've been rambling for a while what I will say is that I do believe that there needs to be some kind of coming together of regulation, and I say that not because I want additional headaches and regulation for the hemp side, but more so because I think it's not a great environment for the consumer. We do a lot of, we do our testing, we do our analysis of our products, we have all the right ingredients, et cetera. But that is not necessarily pervasive throughout the hemp side of this industry. So I do believe that some level of regulation coming together of the environments maybe lower some of the taxing and regulations on the regulated side and increase some of that on the hemp side to kind of meet the middle would be the ideal.

Speaker 1: 21:19

Okay. So, joe, you brought up the beverages and I'm going to jump on that. Um, I have some of them here actually very, very cool design.

Speaker 1: 21:30

Um, you're you're a marketing guy, so I'm presuming that you you took a specific interest in this and you also mentioned your time at dixie. I think you know. I was listening to one of your other interviews. Um, you spent about four years at dixie before uh, before coming on with nancy. Is this kind of like a full circle uh moment for you, where you all of a sudden get to launch beverages out of a, out of a storied brand and you know a brand that actually was perceived as a competitor, not in the same category but in the ed edibles category, to Dixie? So a hundred percent.

Speaker 3: 22:06

It's. It's crazy to me and, and you know, back to the those early days of being competitive brand to Dixie. I mean Juana and Dixie, we started out neck and neck.

Speaker 1: 22:12

And I've looked at this data.

Speaker 3: 22:18

It's fascinating when you, when you go way back to 2014, you see back in 2014, both at the Capitol you know, battling the legislators and the regulators for the right to exist as a company. And the story is you know that WANA really dialed in on a format which is the gummy that the consumer preferred, which we now know is 70 to 80 percent of edible sales is gummies. Dixie's flagship product was the elixir, the beverage that did not dominate. I think it was 2% of sales Last time. I really paid attention to that. But so you saw Juana's share go up, you saw Dixie's share kind of flat to maybe down and that's kind of how it kept going. What I didn't know is that you know, nancy was watching, was watching Dixie and saw what we're doing on the marketing side and was was really interested in that. I was watching what Wanda was doing on the business side and how they're growing, and I was really interested in that. Now, full circle, we've launched beverages, because for me, I I was always anti beverages.

Speaker 2: 23:21

Anytime it was brought up in any company I was with, I'm like they don't sell.

Speaker 3: 23:24

It's not a market and I know the pundits keep talking about beverages and it's just like alcohol, because people are used to drinking and I heard all that I just said.

Speaker 3: 23:34

I know it doesn't work and I see the numbers right. The turning point for me was we have a partner that we work with both on our side of Shop Wanderers, and then a partner that we've, uh, we work with both on the uh on our side, uh, shop wanderers, and then we've also sold gummies on their site, which is happy and I'm sure you guys are familiar with happy and lisa yeah wonderful company, wonderful people.

Speaker 3: 23:53

Um, so I ordered some of uh, happy's beverages to my house I'd never done that before and, uh, a light bulb went off for me. I'm like, okay, I can order this directly to my house and for some reason, like I've got kids and I'm not trying to say I'm unsafe with this but like I put beers in the fridge, I put you know bottles of alcohol on my shelf without thinking about how the kids will access it. I've never had gummies or any you know flour or anything else you know unsafe storage, but I put the beverages in my garage refrigerator and it just felt natural.

Speaker 3: 24:24

I'm like, okay, I can have one, you know, friday afternoon after I'm done with work, and you know it. Just it was a light bulb moment for me that made me think okay, I see, I see what everyone's talking on the beverage side and I also see that you know this is a different model, a different way to access that consumer who might value having a beverage versus having to walk into a dispensary to buy one, where that environment is just not the right environment for beverages.

Speaker 2: 24:46

I love that you said that, because I had such a similar experience. I was one of those people that clicked on an Instagram ad for a hemp beverage and just decided you know what? I've worked in cannabis for 15 years. I have never had cannabis delivered to my house by the U S postal service. I want to see what this is like.

Speaker 2: 25:09

And it was just so cool to receive it and, um, and pretty undeniable of like, wow, that was really efficient, that was a good customer experience, that was just delightful in every way. And then it took it to the next level when Ben and I went in June to Minneapolis and you could sit in a restaurant and get the cocktail menu and there was wine, beer, mocktails, regular cocktails and THC beverages and it just felt like, yes, like this is what we've been fighting for. And even if I wish that we had a one plant regulatory system and that we were most efficient as we could with our inputs and that all of this infighting between hemp and cannabis just wasn't even an issue, it's like what I realized is that access and access to form factors, where the customer actually is, is powerful.

Speaker 3: 26:06

Um, so it's, it's pretty cool you just, you just said that much more eloquently than I did. But yes, I 100 concur with that and and what's crazy too to that end is like in some of the markets that we might launch, um uh, brick and mortar, like you know, working through the three-tier, that valve system, we may become known as a beverage company in that market because they didn't necessarily know us as a gummy company.

Speaker 3: 26:28

My hope is that our brand has enough reach and that in some of these markets they've been consuming a lot when they've visited legal states. But you know they understand us as a gummy company but by the same token we may be a beverage company in some of those markets.

Speaker 1: 26:39

What I love, what you've done with these right, and so I have the whole selection here. It's some intention around the formulation and so the one I just cracked open I'm not getting loaded here, folks it's five milligrams of CBG, five milligrams of CBD and two milligrams of THC. So a nice little. It really is a great form factor. There's a reason I'm such a fan. It's like you can just sip on something. You're not going to get super high, but it'll give you just a little bit of relaxation. The lemonade actually has five milligrams of THCV, five milligrams of CBG and five milligrams of THC. Can you speak a little bit to kind of the intentionality? I guess not even just with the formulations itself, but the branding. This is different than the gummies. You have this kind of cute combination of birds and fruit and I just find it really whimsical which is just a really cool extension of the WANDA brand.

Speaker 3: 27:37

Thank you. I appreciate that and I'll say that, as a marketer, branding and expanding into new categories with a whole different business model, that's a. It's a real challenge, right, like even just adding skews, like as we've built out our quick line and our optimals line and trying to keep all the the brand look and feel together and making sure that you know, everything's consistent. That is a real challenge in the space. And so, with the beverages, we said let's, let's, think about the beverages on a standalone basis. Like what do we want them to look like? Well, there's a wonderful, uh woman who heads up our creative side on the for our hemp products. Um, she found this artist in ecuador. I believe, um, that that does a lot of the work that you're talking about. We work with him to customize, uh, those, those images and, um, it just it felt right for us in terms of how do we take the heart and soul of Juana but put it into a can that expresses beverages in a different way than we do our gummies, and so that's kind of how we got to the cans.

Speaker 3: 28:35

But the overall journey with beverages has been one that I think has been educational for all of us and it allowed us to really expand our thought process, which is the exciting part. Everything from innovation on the formulation side to brand work. That's what gets people energized and excited, right, and so to the point that you made about the formulations in those products, a lot of those are formulations that we use on the regulated side in varying dosages, but similar combination of cannabinoids that we know have a very specific effect. So, like the THCV, we know that that cannabinoid for the products that we created provides a really nice kind of energy and mood lift and really goes well in our lift product that we launched on the gummy on the regulated side.

Speaker 1: 29:22

So we transferred that over Now I'll be honest.

Speaker 3: 29:24

The question I have is does the consumer on the hemp side coming into, let's say, a liquor store, does that resonate with them? How do we communicate to them that this is a differentiated product from the straight distillate, you know product that you're seeing next to it? Those are the challenges that we have, that lie ahead for us in terms of understanding how all of this is going to work together in a WANA ecosystem.

Speaker 2: 29:49

So I'd like to dive into what winning means. You're talking about expanding into a new category, to a new channel. You're already in a number of states with the regulated products. How do you know if you're winning?

Speaker 3: 30:04

of states with the regulated products. How do you know if you're winning? That's a great question, because some days, you know, it's hard to see that forest for the trees right in this business. But you know we're really dialed in on our metrics, you know, in terms of revenue, in terms of EBITDA, right. So, are we doing this profitably? Are we growing? We have our goals and our metrics for both of those, and so that's at the highest level we track. But we also want to look at, you know, what's the repeat buy Right. So and that's data that we sometimes have a hard time getting from dispensaries, but it probably a little bit easier in this more traditional three tier channel we can see what that velocity looks like, because what that tells us is we're finding an audience, they like the product and they're coming back for more of that product, and so that you know, that to us it will be a win as we see that velocity begin to pick up.

Speaker 3: 30:55

I think our strategy on the regulated side will also apply to the hemp side, which has been let's get to a lot of markets quickly and really establish the bar right, because that's what we did on the regular side Even. You know, we launched in small markets Arkansas and Mississippi and markets that weren't hugely on the radar for a lot of companies because A as.

Speaker 3: 31:18

I mentioned earlier, it's our mission to bring those products to people, but also because we know that if we can get in there early, establish some brand loyalty and also show them what a great edible product looks like, that will help us maintain that brand and market share moving forward.

Speaker 3: 31:33

In some cases those markets grew up immensely overnight, like in Missouri. It wasn't a huge market when we entered it but having been there for as long as we have, that really helped to establish the brand and create some loyalty. So similarly, we'll hopefully be able to do the same on the hemp side of things in those markets where it's allowed and there are some regulation. I'll tell you that our preferable model is markets that do have some level of regulation, because I think that uncertainty of you know what is going to be or it's going to be, that like how is this going to change, and we're very much in the middle of that for a lot of different states. But we prefer to go into markets where we can say it's clear, this is what we, you know the products are applicable and this is the channel through which we can sell them.

Speaker 1: 32:16

Well, as an entrepreneur, one of the forms of winning is exits, and we don't get to see too many in the cannabis industry. You know there's a lot of I know, fund managers that are still waiting on exits and markups for their cannabis companies and portfolios, but Juana is one of those few companies that has actually reached promised land, so to speak, still operating, which is great. You know, it's like there's always this question about what happens to a brand after it gets, after it gets acquired. Can you, can we kind of dive into that dynamic a little bit? How has that acquisition either changed the trajectory of of Juana or helped you in some ways kind of continue this, this growth trajectory? Has it? Has it been wind in the sails or or what? What should people on the outside know? Because I don't think we've heard too much about about it since?

Speaker 3: 33:11

Yeah, well, look, I think that the the the short answer here is that it's it's. It's a benefit, right? So what you said wind in your sails, right? So this, this allows us the relationship that we now have and forming CUSA, canopy, usa, as part of this, but it brings together brighter minds, more minds. It brings, you know, potentially resources, and I don't necessarily mean financial, but I mean just in terms of you know, if this company has this healthcare program and we have a different one, like what's the best opportunity for us to partner on that?

Speaker 3: 33:46

So there's a lot of synergies that we've just begun to really explore that I think we have a great opportunity for to really dig into that and find a lot of synergies across the companies that are involved and then for us, on a day-to-day basis. It's, you know, full steam ahead with our plans and our model and the way that we're growing. So there's support there for our approach. I think the reason they acquired us is because we have a strong brand, we have strong products and we have strong people. Smart acquirers don't want to mess with that. Why would you want to?

Speaker 1: 34:21

There's not always smart acquirers out there. You want to, so I think there's. There's not always art acquirers out there. Sometimes it's a tragic to see what happens to certain brands, but it's nice to see that you guys have seemingly kept some autonomy with with how you've been growing.

Speaker 3: 34:33

Yeah, you know, we have again even more great minds to help us figure it out. But you know, as a, as a brand we continue to to be Juana, and that is the trajectory for the foreseeable future.

Speaker 2: 34:47

So I'd like to ask a question that is speaking to you as a marketer. I see in cannabis there is a lot of brands that really try to position themselves as premium and, as you said earlier, in the dispensary you know really what consumers seem to be going for is price per milligram, and I'm wondering how you see Juana's brand positioning. Do you think of yourself as premium? Do you aspire to be premium? How do you rationalize this whole challenge that brands are facing within the context of competitive pricing?

Speaker 3: 35:29

Oh, it's a never ending challenge. Honestly, I take a big sigh there, because it you know it is. It is hard in a price compressed industry to to maintain that, that pricing integrity. And so I'll start by answering the first question you asked do we consider ourselves a premium brand?

Speaker 3: 35:46

I would say yes but we consider ourselves accessible, premium. So if you looked at all products on the shelf, we're going to have the best formulations, the best outcomes from the product, the best effects and the best ingredients. Can you always get the premium that you deserve for all of those? Not always, because it is super price, competitive and you're also faced with an environment from a retail perspective where oftentimes I use the number.

Speaker 3: 36:13

It's not a very scientific number, but you know 70 percent of the of the purchasing process is influenced by the bud tender and they have their own preferences and their own understanding of what of what value means. Or they're incented to sell a product that's on sale that week, or they have their own numbers to hit right. So we're competing in a an environment where we don't always have the opportunity to both express who we are in our fullest sense, and then also the pricing becomes a challenge. And also, you know, we have in some cases retailers are not that are not and I don't mean this pejoratively, but maybe not as sophisticated as other industries where they may say well, we want to price all our gummies at this.

Speaker 3: 36:52

I don't walk into Nordstrom's and you know, look for all the jeans that are exact same price, like there are some that are 300, there are some that are 75, you know that is a consumer cue as to what they're buying, the value, the quality, et cetera. So all of those are reasons that make it challenging for us. That said, I think we've done a really good job of keeping our premium price positioning and really standing out on the shelf against some of our competitors in a way that at least signals to the consumer this is a product that's a little bit different and it's through the cannabinoids, the formulations, the effect, specificity and of course you know, and of course, word of mouth.

Speaker 1: 37:34

Joe, I want to kind of start transitioning a little bit into like your own personal leadership style. It's something that we like to kind of focus on on the show. You know, being CEOs and knowing that we have a bunch that do tune in. We had Michael Johnson from Metric on a few episodes ago and we were talking about his trajectory to CEO and he's more of a finance guy, former CFO, and you know we see that sometimes it's like okay, good with numbers, good speaking to investors, raising money, that kind of stuff. You're a CMO who has made that transition to the top seat and I'm curious as to how you think that gives you the perspective you need to run Juana in the right direction. And then also what it means for the CMO community or, like you know, for other people that you, you know, surround yourself with.

Speaker 3: 38:28

Yeah. So you know, in terms of style I was, I was going to jump in there and say tyrannical, but I don't believe that person.

Speaker 1: 38:35

But not really.

Speaker 3: 38:36

I, I, you know, I, I, I try to be mean but it never works out smiling and I can't do it. But so the the CMO transitions is. It's funny because it it didn't dawn on me that it was a big deal for, I think, for the marketing community, until I saw a bunch of comments on.

Speaker 3: 38:58

LinkedIn, there's a whole dialogue about it, you know, cmo making that transition into the leadership role. You know, to me, it was Nancy and myself and our leadership team here at WANA making a decision that we felt was right for the brand, based on, again, the fact that you know, brand is of the highest value here and culture, which is a big, you know big thing for me, and I began to really think about that. I realized like, yeah, you're right. Mostly it's CFOs and COOs that assume that position because they have deep operational experience or deep financial experience. In this particular case, I'm surrounded by people who have those skill sets.

Speaker 3: 39:42

Luckily, we have an amazing CFO in Sandy Lee, an amazing CRO with Eric Locke and an awesome COO with Kelly Flores, and so I feel blessed to use that word I think it's an overused word but in the fact that I have very smart people can handle the things that maybe aren't my strongest suit. I know my way around a spreadsheet in financials pretty well. Can I, you know, build out progression models and come up with you know a million different ways that we can look at financing something? No, but luckily Sandy can. So I'm surrounded by great people, which then allows me to really focus on vision, on culture, on brand and on making sure that we are a company that people want to work for, that want to do their best for, and that we are able to articulate that culture, through our products and through our brand, into the communities that we love.

Speaker 2: 40:33

To dive in deeper about the way that you became the leader that you are today and that you continue to grow, hopefully, as we all are. I'm curious if you have any mentors or advisors that have helped you along in your career, or communities that you're a part of that you turn to to just, you know, to keep the oil in the wheels.

Speaker 3: 41:01

I do. I do, luckily and that's critically important right to surround yourself with people that can lift you up and can give you the right advice and direction, and it's everywhere from my family. So my father-in-law, who passed a few years ago, a tremendous mentor to me, cfo of Zales, very spreadsheet numbers guy, but really also understood how to treat people and how to find integrity in the work that you do. My brother-in-law and sister-in-law are similarly very successful, great advisors for me. I've had some bosses along the way. Jeff Potter, who is the CEO of Frontier Airlines, has been a great mentor for me, as well as the VP of Marketing there, a guy named Andrew Hudson these are all local Colorado folks you know has been a mentor for me. And then in the cannabis industry, honestly, nancy right, obviously. And in the cannabis industry, honestly, nancy right, obviously. She was a mentor for me before I moved over to Juana. So that was the nature of our relationship and it has only grown since then.

Speaker 3: 41:56

I still talk to Nancy very regularly. She is gracious enough to continue to provide that level of support and mentorship, and so you know all of those combined have given me a really strong foundation of people that I can turn to when I have questions. When I struggle I tend to be I overthink, right. So I internalize a lot, as I'm sure many people do. That's not unique to me necessarily, but I know that being able to talk it through with people and get different perspectives are the ways that I come to a better decision, a better conclusion, and so I leverage every single person I know that can help me in that process.

Speaker 1: 42:34

I love that. Anna Rae and I were just talking about that yesterday, about these communities that we're a part of, that provide these grounding points For me. It's monthly, a very regimented monthly group that I meet with, and having that opportunity to sanity check just this world that we're living in. I'm looking to do that. The common phrase I'm sorry to interrupt you.

Speaker 3: 42:59

Quick question, because I get approached by these CEO groups and you can be part of this great CEO group for $10,000 a year or whatever it is. Are you involved in that kind of thing, or is this your own group of people that you kind of pulled together?

Speaker 1: 43:12

Exactly. Yeah, there's actually a couple. So one is exactly that. It's called Vistage and I meet with 18, anywhere between 15 and 18 CEOs every month and it's the interesting thing about it is the same group every month. So there's a lot of trust that's built over time. I'm the only cannabis person in that group and you know the the kind of like settling thing is is we all deal with the same problems. Mine are a little crazier at times because of cannabis, but it's all the same issues and a lot of times it's interpersonal. You know team dynamics, that kind of stuff. That is the most kind of maddening thing sometimes, or at least ones that you can overthink. So having those moments to like just sanity, check yourself, bounce ideas off people, and and I always find that when I walk away from a session that I'm calm and I'm grounded, I'm going in like with clear thought into the next month and then it builds up and then it's another pressure release. But, yeah, critically important. So highly encouraged to everyone out there.

Speaker 3: 44:14

Well, that's an interesting. I need to go back to them because I've been approached by them and a few others and I put it off, but maybe that's a good opportunity. I appreciate that Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 44:23

Yeah, it's, it's. It's critical that leaders continue to invest in themselves, because that's really the proven key to being able to show up for your business, and almost every great leader that we've talked to has someone or some group that they're a part of that's helping support them in their journey. So it's fun to talk about that stuff, and more to come for sure. I am wondering, as we're talking about leadership, kind of a slight jump, but just before we start to wrap, I'm really curious globally about how you're looking at the global market and potential leadership for Juana around the world as well, because I know that you're in Canada and the US but as part of a global public company, my expectation is that there's big discussions going on about markets that are turning on all around the world and I'm just wondering if you're paying attention to them and if Juana's charting a plane across the world and I'm just I'm wondering if you're paying attention to them and if Juana's charting a plane across the sea.

Speaker 3: 45:38

Well, yes and no. So the yes part well, yes, I'm looking at it and yes, it's always a topic of discussion. And yes, canopy has presence in multiple countries as well and, you know, trying to find those opportunities and synergies with them is really important. We are not only in Canada but we also are in Switzerland. So I'm going to use that as a case study to say this is what we need or we look for in any opportunity where we can expand internationally.

Speaker 3: 46:01

So Switzerland, in my opinion, was kind of a little bit of a sleeper market, and I don't even know that a lot of people know this today. They put together what they're calling pilot programs and so every city in canton which canton was a new term for me, it's like a, I guess it's called like a state um is allowed to have apply for these, uh, these pilot programs, um, that, uh, you can have up to 5 000 participants. A lot of detail anyway. Long story short, it is a way for them to test the waters of essentially adult use legalization. You have to apply to the program as a consumer to be part of it. Actually, a funny side note to that is that you have to be an existing cannabis consumer. They will test your blood to make sure there's TC in your blood before you're admitted into the program, which I thought was kind of interesting, and so that is a framework that we say OK, edibles are part of this, there's regulation for it, they allow for it.

Speaker 3: 46:52

This is a market that has potential for us. We have a great partner there. We're working into that market. That's really exciting. We have continued to watch all of the noise around, whether it's Germany or Australia or any of these many other markets where legalization is either starting to occur, like Germany, or you know where there's a medical program, like Australia. But what we, what we've really decided, because we've had so many discussions and it's so time consuming to to go down the path and you're talking about, you know, like we looked at a certain point, taking a trip over to Australia to meet with the company. It would have been a week of just you know between the travel and actually meeting. That would have easily been a week of just you know between the travel and actually meeting. That would have easily been a week right. So getting to these places to eyeball it, see what's really going on, which is really critical to understanding a market.

Speaker 3: 47:36

just it's challenging. So we have taken a little bit of a. Let's see if any market really comes up with a regulatory environment that allows us to get into the market the way that we think we need to get into the market. Because if we're trying to shoehorn something in or we're trying to say, well, there's this little tiny crack, yeah, potentially you could exploit that, but that takes a lot of time, effort, money and focus that we can put to better use here on the hemp side or on the regulated side of our business in the US.

Speaker 1: 48:06

Yeah, a good old pioneer tax yeah and it's time consuming.

Speaker 3: 48:13

I've talked to people from all over the world right Not only at Juana, but at other stages of my cannabis career and everyone thinks that their market is the next big market and here's how we'll do it, and it never really pans out the right way.

Speaker 1: 48:25

I will raise my hand and say that I got a little overexcited when we started seeing legalization happening in Mexico and had to dial back our expectations quite considerably since that time. Yeah, Curious Joe, you know we talked about mentor groups and all that kind of stuff. What's your advice to other leaders out there, Like, what books are you reading? What are your practices that are keeping you effective and engaged with the company?

Speaker 3: 48:54

That's a great question and I, you know, I'm taking information from a lot of different places, so I've been reading a lot of different books. One of them was and I can't remember the name of it, but basically it's how to be an impact player in an organization, and I'm thinking about it from the name of it, but basically it's how to be an impact player in an organization, and I'm thinking about it from the context of myself. What am I, an impact?

Speaker 1: 49:13

player.

Speaker 3: 49:14

You know what makes me an impact player, if I am but also how to identify those within the company and why those people succeed.

Speaker 3: 49:20

But I think, you know, for me, I think what I am really, really a fan of is kind of is being transparent, and I partly say that because I've never been good at, you know, pretending to be this way at work but being a different person at home.

Speaker 3: 49:40

And you know, I'm not saying I have to mix those two lives, but I am who I am and I find that it is empowering I'm going to use a term that I really hate, but I'm just going to use it anyway but showing some vulnerability as a leader, I think, endears you to people and helps them go like oh, he's just like us, right, and so not, that was ever a question.

Speaker 3: 50:03

But I think, you know, allowing myself to say, ok, this is, this is what I'm feeling. I don't have to blurt out every single emotion I have, I have enough control not to do that, but but you know, knowing that there are times when you you feel this way and it's OK to communicate that and to ask for support, but likewise, to be able to provide that support for people when they need it to, you know, I think that's that's really important, and I don't mean necessarily in a soft, touchy-feely way all the time, but really to be able to hear people and to also be able to relate to it as a human being, I think is an important quality and trait for a leader.

Speaker 3: 50:40

Thank you, thank you, I'm going to hold you to get me that book reference after the show. I will, and actually Eric, our CRO, is the one who turned me on to this book. So happy to do that.

Speaker 2: 50:47

Awesome. Well, joe, it has been such a pleasure having you today and we give all of our guests an opportunity to make a last call before we say goodbye, and this is your chance to, to make a plug, a lasting impression, give some advice, really whatever you want. So, joe, before we say goodbye to you today, what is your last call for our audience?

Speaker 3: 51:09

My last call is that I really hope that for us, the election outcomes and you know, regardless of what's going on politically right now that we figure out a path forward for cannabis that provides accessibility to everyone who wants or needs it, and that we really finally pull away that that veil of you know cannabis as this secret society, or that it's not for everybody. Um, because I think there's a huge opportunity to improve our world and our conditions as human beings through cannabis, and I hope that we can. I hope we can figure it out and you know, and fighting the infighting ends and there's clarity, and that we we create an industry that's going to be impactful for a long time to come. There's clarity and that we we create an industry that's going to be impactful for a long time to come.

Speaker 1: 51:49

Love it All, right, joe. Well, appreciate it. Appreciate the beverage. It's delicious, thank you. My first time trying it, so this is amazing All right?

Speaker 3: 51:58

Well, send me some, you know, send me some feedback. If you have any, let me know Absolutely Well, you got it.

Speaker 1: 52:02

You got it on the raspberry tea. A nice two milligram dose for my morning. All right, We'll talk to you soon, joe.

Speaker 3: 52:09

Appreciate you guys having me. Thank you, take care.

Speaker 1: 52:12

All right, Anna Rae. Well, happy Halloween. And yeah, you all geared up for election next week.

Speaker 2: 52:18

Oh yeah, and we are geared up too. So to anyone that's still listening the last couple of minutes of the show, we will have Hearst Jane back for an election after party next week, and we're calling it a party, but we don't know what we're celebrating yet. So hopefully we have some wins to celebrate on the cannabis policy side and Hirsch will be giving us his perspective on what unfolded next Tuesday.

Speaker 1: 52:45

A bright, bright mind. I'm excited to have him back on. All right folks. Well, what'd you think? Did you learn something from Joe? Check out Wanda Brands, wanderess, shopwanderesscom. A lot of great products on there, a lot of familiar brands. Excited to see them. Thank you so much to Joe for joining us today. Thank you to you, our audience, for joining us and especially thank you to our teams at virtosa and wolfmeyer for making this happen every week. Remember folks, stay curious, stay informed and keep your spirits high until next time. That's the show.